Date   
Re: Screen shots

"ke7kro" <basil@...>
 

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "c0j" <jpronans@...> wrote:

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "k7udr" <bhhoyer@> wrote:

I'll post an app note on using the UDR56K with the Winlink system next week, including screen shots.

Bryan
Hi Bryan, all,

Are you using paclink-unix/LinuxRMS or something else?
Hi John,
Hope you remember me from our posts on paclink-unix.
Thanks for the postfix howto.
This project is an out growth of our work with the SheevaPlug and uses paclink-unix & Linux RMS.
Look forward to you getting a hold of some of our units for fun & testing.
/Basil KE7KRO

Re: Screen shots

"john_ke5c" <ke5c@...>
 

In general, I'm very interested in the UDR, I've done a good bit of testing (with Darren, G0HWW) of DTN, NORM, IPv6 and other protocols over 9K6 AX.25, D-Star DD mode, and to me it seems that it may hit a sweet-spot between RF range and data throughput (if there is indeed such a thing). I guess EmComm would be my main use/interest for it.
I too have been wondering about 9600 (or thereabouts) data. We might be able to take advantage of the gateway/internet infrastructure if a "Dd" DStar packet could be defined that would use all bits for just data, no voice. I'm guessing (hoping actually), the band modules and gateways would pass those so long as the headers were okay. Of course, it would sound like garbage to DV radios, but you could commit band modules to data only. dplus might burp, but you would probably callsign route such "data" packets anyway. Just brainstorming,

73--john

API's & Documentation Underway?

"Brian Duck" <bkduck@...>
 

So, I'm interested in custom application development for the UDR56K-4.

Are there API's under development or documentation to review?

Thanks for your efforts on what looks to be a great platform.

Brian Duck
W1DUC
bkduck@...

Re: API's & Documentation Underway?

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Hi Brian,

There will be APIs.  We are busy in development right now, and will be focusing on getting the radio ready for market.

We encourage development for this device, hence the high use of FOSS (Free Open Source Software) by NorthWest Digital Radio.

Development is pretty straight forward.  The device is running a Debian Squeeze distribution, so the baseline is familiarity with development under Linux.  In house development is done running a cross compilation tool chain on desktop Debian systems (to take advantage of multi-core processors and high memory), either native or as a VM, and the completed builds are transferred to the CPU board for the radio.

What we will provide are APIs to control the radio; frequency, shift, modulation choice, power, and any other similar controls.  We will also provide drivers to send and receive data between the CPU board and radio board,  and between the CPU board and the Vocoder board.

Since the integration is at buss levels, programs will be able to talk to the radio directly over the buss, eliminating some of the bottlenecks of previous implementations.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Brian Duck <bkduck@...> wrote:
 

So, I'm interested in custom application development for the UDR56K-4.

Are there API's under development or documentation to review?

Thanks for your efforts on what looks to be a great platform.

Brian Duck
W1DUC
bkduck@...

Re: Screen shots

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Hi John,

We've been thinking about some of these ideas as well.  In the design of the UDR56K-4 we really are shooting for the "sweet spot" between data rate, bandwidth, propagation, and utility.

70cm was chosen as the band because we can run at 56 K bauds and up to 100 Khz of bandwidth (Part 97.307) which is sufficient for many data transfer applications like text email. The band has decent propagation (compared to 33/23 cm) and is less crowded than 2 meters in most areas (especially in the 420-440 segment).  Lower loss cable, connectors, etc. and reasonable gain antennas are easier to work with than at higher frequencies.   A lot of people have said why don't you put it on 2 meters?  Well, we would have to cut back to 19.2 K bauds and the band is too popular with little room for additional modes.

So the main difference between DV and  DD, as far as the bits go, is 1 bit flag in the header and the payload.  So theoretically one could do a 4800 bps DD signal through a DV repeater.  Where it gets tricky is we don't know where in the Icom chain things might fall apart:
  1. Do  the DV radios honor the header flag bit and not try to decode the payload of a DD packet?  If so, then you wouldn't hear anything on a Voice channel when the bit was set.  Also Icom uses its digital coded squelch, which everyone leaves at 00, so would that also help filter out DD?  We'll know more about that when we start generating some 4800 bps DD on a channel.
  2. Does the Icom repeater look for the bit when repeating DV?  If not then local repeater use should be possible on current Icom repeaters.
  3. Does the RP2C require the bit to be set or unset when a port is designated for DV or DD in setup?
  4. Does the RP2C send to different ports on the gateway for DV vs DD data.  We know different ports (UDP 40000,40001) are used for DV and DD going to and from the gateway over the Internet.
  5. What exactly would the Icom G2 gateway do with a signal where the header bit is set opposite of what the module was designated for, e.g. DD on a DV module or DV on a DD module?
So much of this is just a black box on a platform like Icom G2.

Clearly on open source gateway and repeater controller software we could adapt to multiplex DD and DV on the same repeater or half-duplex channel, but we won't know on the Icom stuff until we're able to test. (We do have access to some RP2C / G2 gateway systems for testing.)

One thing about DD is it is callsign addressed, so if the reflector code would only pass DV traffic with CQCQCQ (or the reflector designator) in the UR field, one could multiplex without affecting links or reflectors.

The other concern with very low rate DD is buffering traffic from higher speed systems, e.g. trying to squirt a 56 or 128 K DD packet through a 4800 bps channel should work, but timings for TCP ACK packets, etc. would get a little crazy.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 9:27 AM, john_ke5c <ke5c@...> wrote:
 

> In general, I'm very interested in the UDR, I've done a good bit of testing (with Darren, G0HWW) of DTN, NORM, IPv6 and other protocols over 9K6 AX.25, D-Star DD mode, and to me it seems that it may hit a sweet-spot between RF range and data throughput (if there is indeed such a thing). I guess EmComm would be my main use/interest for it.

I too have been wondering about 9600 (or thereabouts) data. We might be able to take advantage of the gateway/internet infrastructure if a "Dd" DStar packet could be defined that would use all bits for just data, no voice. I'm guessing (hoping actually), the band modules and gateways would pass those so long as the headers were okay. Of course, it would sound like garbage to DV radios, but you could commit band modules to data only. dplus might burp, but you would probably callsign route such "data" packets anyway. Just brainstorming,

73--john

Newbie question

"carter_hutchinson" <zydecos@...>
 

I missed this at Dayton. Can I use this with my analog HT and connect to the dstar network, or do I need an Icom dstar HT?
73
K9kjn

Re: Newbie question

"neil_g7eby" <g7eby.neil@...>
 

It may be possible, but it is frowned upon to do so, except on a few dedicated reflectors which have Echolink (analog) connectivity.

Some XRF reflectors do indeed have this and use an 'Analog Bridge' to go from an analog port number to a D-Star reflector.

If you want to do this on a permanent basis, I suggest you ask the FreeStar team or Barry, G8SAU, as they have live reflectors doing this.

However, for a more practical analog to echolink bridge/gateway, I'm sure this radio could be adopted by those interested, when the AMBE board is available.

Neil G7EBY.

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "carter_hutchinson" <zydecos@...> wrote:

I missed this at Dayton. Can I use this with my analog HT and connect to the dstar network, or do I need an Icom dstar HT?
73
K9kjn

Re: Newbie question

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Hi Hutch,

Short answer "no" ...

Longer answer.  

You can use the UDR56K-4 in a few configurations to get on the D-STAR network.

There will be an application that turns the UDR56K-4 into a 70cm D-STAR radio that you can use to talk D-STAR on simplex or through repeaters and half-duplex gateways (hotspots).

There is an application in the G4KLX suite that will need to be adapted to use the AMBE daughter card, but allows you to appear as a user on a virtual repeater talking into the D-STAR network.  (This application already works on the UDR56K-4 using a DVDongle for the AMBE chip).

If you have a D-STAR radio, the UDR56K-4 can act as a half-duplex gateway into the D-STAR network.  A workbench version using an external radio and modem has been running for a couple of months, but will become an application to use the UDR56K-4 built-in radio and modem.

There is no application that puts an analog HT on D-STAR.   Fundamental to D-STAR's digital voice is the need for an AMBE  vocoder to be in the path.  This is contained in the D-STAR HTs and Mobiles from Icom.  The conversion of audio to digital and back happens in this chip.  What goes over the air is the digital signal.  It is possible to adapt some analog FM radios with external hardware and software to use D-STAR DV.  There is also a provision in the protocol to have a special hybrid device at a D-STAR gateway to provide the AMBE encode/decode and interact with analog radios, but it has not been implemented.  I could sketch out how that might be accomplished with a second analog radio and a UDR56K-4, but will leave that for another time.

BTW, I was introduced to Zydeco only about 20 years ago. Love it, and occasionally run across a station on my Internet radio, hoo-wee!!!


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 7:50 AM, carter_hutchinson <zydecos@...> wrote:
 

I missed this at Dayton. Can I use this with my analog HT and connect to the dstar network, or do I need an Icom dstar HT?
73
K9kjn


Re: API's & Documentation Underway?

"Chris B" <brizey02@...>
 

I'm ready to start doing some development also!

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "John D. Hays" <john@...> wrote:

Hi Brian,

There will be APIs. We are busy in development right now, and will be
focusing on getting the radio ready for market.

We encourage development for this device, hence the high use of FOSS (Free
Open Source Software) by NorthWest Digital Radio.

Development is pretty straight forward. The device is running a Debian
Squeeze distribution, so the baseline is familiarity with development under
Linux. In house development is done running a cross compilation tool chain
on desktop Debian systems (to take advantage of multi-core processors and
high memory), either native or as a VM, and the completed builds are
transferred to the CPU board for the radio.

What we will provide are APIs to control the radio; frequency, shift,
modulation choice, power, and any other similar controls. We will also
provide drivers to send and receive data between the CPU board and radio
board, and between the CPU board and the Vocoder board.

Since the integration is at buss levels, programs will be able to talk to
the radio directly over the buss, eliminating some of the bottlenecks of
previous implementations.

------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>



On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Brian Duck <bkduck@...> wrote:

**


So, I'm interested in custom application development for the UDR56K-4.

Are there API's under development or documentation to review?

Thanks for your efforts on what looks to be a great platform.

Brian Duck
W1DUC
bkduck@...


P25?

"hf_user" <zcopters@...>
 

Hi Bryan!


Any chance you will have a P25 repeater available? Timeframe?


Thanks,


Larry
WA7LZO

Re: P25?

"k7udr" <bhhoyer@...>
 

Larry,

Repeater operation, the SHORT answer.

Repeaters require full-duplex operation. NW Digital Radio is planning on releasing a Full Duplex Radio sometime next year pending response of our initial product.

P25, DMR, NXDN The LONG answer.

The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software, limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface limitations like TDMA.

The initial release supports the two most popular digital implementations D-STAR and AX.25 but you have to understand that we didn't write the vast majority of the software, the Amateur Community did.

Let's start with packet which was developed by Hams in the 80s.

Linux has an AX.25 Stack which implements the layer 2 protocol, and the Radio chip supports the underlying HDLC synchronous packetization directly.

To operate with the winlink system we use Linux RMS for the gateway and Paclink Unix for the client side. We have added a web browser interface with open-source webmail so you don't need Airmail or any other dedicated program to send and receive emails over the system.

For APRS, which also depends on the AX25 stack, we are integrating APRX which performs the various functions including acting as an I-Gate. GPS units are available OTS with Linux drivers as well.

As for D-STAR, there is also a lot of open source available. We use the g4klx suite including his gateway and repeater controller, as well as Ircddb as the database.

So the question is not whether NW Digital Radio is going to support P25, DMR, NXDN etc. It's whether the Amateur community feels there is enough value to dedicate their resources to it. Once that happens they can certainly port to our open-source platform. and we're here to help.

Bryan

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "hf_user" <zcopters@...> wrote:

Hi Bryan!


Any chance you will have a P25 repeater available? Timeframe?


Thanks,


Larry
WA7LZO

Re: P25?

Tyrell Berry <kd7kuj@...>
 


> The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software, limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface limitations like TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by DMR's TDMA? 

Re: P25?

"David Lake (dlake)" <dlake@...>
 

That’s on the mobile side.

 

BS is constant carrier even for empty timeslots.

 

Format is TS1 – CACH – TS2 – CACH repeated.

 

From: UniversalDigitalRadio@... [mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Tyrell Berry
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:22 AM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?

 





> The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software, limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface limitations like TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by DMR's TDMA? 




Re: P25?

"Chris B" <brizey02@...>
 

I was just thinking of 2 units to do P25 with!

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "David Lake (dlake)" <dlake@...> wrote:

That's on the mobile side.



BS is constant carrier even for empty timeslots.



Format is TS1 - CACH - TS2 - CACH repeated.



From: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
[mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Tyrell Berry
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:22 AM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?









The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software,
limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface
limitations like TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by
DMR's TDMA?

Re: P25?

"William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...>
 

Not sure if any of you have seen this:

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Digital_Speech_Decoder_%28software_
package%29


Linux Based Decoder Software that supports:

• P25 Phase 1
• ProVoice EDACS Digital voice
• X2-TDMA - Motorola public safety TDMA system with P25 style signaling
(mostly based on DMR)
• DMR/MOTOTRBO - Digital Mobile Radio standard
• NXDN - 9600 baud (12.5 kHz) NEXEDGE and 4800 baud (6.25 kHz) NEXEDGE/IDAS
• C4FM modulation
• GFSK modulation (including GMSK and other filtered 2/4 level FSK)
• QPSK modulation (sometimes marketed as "LSM")

The following formats are currently under investigation or development:
• P25 Phase 2 - standard not finalized yet, vocoder is supported by mbelib
• OpenSky - four slot format vocoder may be supported by mbelib. Will not be
supportable if it is determined that voice encryption is not optional
• D-STAR - Voice frames recognized, vocoder not supported by mbelib. May be
possible to pass voice bits to DVDongle.
• Other formats will only be considered if high quality samples of the
signals are made available for download by the developers. Samples must be
from a discriminator tap, .wav format, 48000Hz, 16 bits per sample, mono.



From: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
[mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Chris B
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 3:21 PM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?

 
I was just thinking of 2 units to do P25 with!

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "David Lake (dlake)"
<dlake@...> wrote:

That's on the mobile side.



BS is constant carrier even for empty timeslots.



Format is TS1 - CACH - TS2 - CACH repeated.



From: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
[mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Tyrell Berry
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:22 AM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?









The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software,
limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface
limitations like TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by
DMR's TDMA?

Re: P25?

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

I am familiar with the package -- NW Digital Radio would not be inclined to directly support it, due to the following:

Patent Issues with mbelib

While DSD was intended to be patent-free, mbelib describes functions that may be covered by one or more U.S. patents owned by DVSI Inc. The source code itself should not be infringing as it merely describes possible methods of implementation. Compiling or using mbelib may infringe on patents rights and/or require licensing. It is unknown if DVSI will sell licenses for software that uses mbelib. If you do not have a license and are in a jurisdiction protected by the DVSI patents you should not compile or use this source code. 


-- from the project site.


If the mbelib is not used, the rest of the code might be worth study by a developer.   P25 Phase 2 does use an AMBE chip (newer than the one D-STAR uses --  We are studying using the newest 3000 series chip in our daughter card).  Phase 1 uses the incompatible IMBE vocoder.



John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 5:13 PM, William Stillwell - KI4SWY <wkstill@...> wrote:
 

Not sure if any of you have seen this:

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Digital_Speech_Decoder_%28software_
package%29

Linux Based Decoder Software that supports:

• P25 Phase 1
• ProVoice EDACS Digital voice
• X2-TDMA - Motorola public safety TDMA system with P25 style signaling
(mostly based on DMR)
• DMR/MOTOTRBO - Digital Mobile Radio standard
• NXDN - 9600 baud (12.5 kHz) NEXEDGE and 4800 baud (6.25 kHz) NEXEDGE/IDAS
• C4FM modulation
• GFSK modulation (including GMSK and other filtered 2/4 level FSK)
• QPSK modulation (sometimes marketed as "LSM")

The following formats are currently under investigation or development:
• P25 Phase 2 - standard not finalized yet, vocoder is supported by mbelib
• OpenSky - four slot format vocoder may be supported by mbelib. Will not be
supportable if it is determined that voice encryption is not optional
• D-STAR - Voice frames recognized, vocoder not supported by mbelib. May be
possible to pass voice bits to DVDongle.
• Other formats will only be considered if high quality samples of the
signals are made available for download by the developers. Samples must be
from a discriminator tap, .wav format, 48000Hz, 16 bits per sample, mono.

Re: P25?

"William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...>
 

But you said you would be using the AMBE Vocoder 3000? Which would not require the use of mbelib at all.

Re: P25?

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Considering 3000, yes.  

P25 - IMBE
P25 Phase 2 - AMBE

I don't think the 3000 does IMBE.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:13 PM, William Stillwell - KI4SWY <wkstill@...> wrote:
 

But you said you would be using the AMBE Vocoder 3000? Which would not require the use of mbelib at all.


Re: P25?

Tyrell Berry <kd7kuj@...>
 

But...  No transmit... 

I have seen it before, and its cool...  For unlicensed folk who like to listen to police scanners.  But I want to talk...  and for that, I need the other half of the code.

And I'm not smart enough to write it myself :/

On Jun 5, 2012 6:00 PM, "William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...> wrote:
 

Not sure if any of you have seen this:

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Digital_Speech_Decoder_%28software_
package%29

Linux Based Decoder Software that supports:

• P25 Phase 1

Re: P25?

"William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...>
 

Well, if you don’t know how to “generate” data stream, decoding it is the first hurdle.

 

Ie, when “dstar” first came into light, ICOM didn’t freely publish the TCP/IP stack, it had to be “deciphered” and applications where written, application were used, to “gather the data” on how it worked.

 

DSD would be a great tool for understanding how the over the air protocol works for different modes, then one can work on building a transmit stream.

 

Before everyone was using GMSK modem chips for their “nodes”, but now people are using sound cards, and dsp chips doing it all in software.

 

You want to transmit P25? NXDN? DSTAR? And you want to do it now? Sorry to say, check out ebay.

 

I own 3 Dstar Radios (down from 5 and a repeater), and 2 NXDN radios and an NXDN repeater.

 

The cost of NXDN is way less then D-Star which is the sad part.

 

MTRTRBO is also looking very good price wise as well, (considering a “new” icom D-star Repeater w/Gateway server cost you 4K + (pc’s are not free, neither is the official icom gw software) if doing all “ICOM” labeled. MOTOTRBO Repeaters are around 2K ? I am not sure if it comes with the IP Option. Or how much more on top of the 2K.

 

There are a LOT of licensed operators who run scanners in their cars, and shacks, there great tools.

 

William Stillwell – Ki4SwY

ICOM NXDN Repeater – 442.7625 RAN 1

IRLP Node # 8549 (offline)

New Port Richey, FL

 

 

From: UniversalDigitalRadio@... [mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Tyrell Berry
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 1:52 AM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: RE: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?

 

 

But...  No transmit... 

I have seen it before, and its cool...  For unlicensed folk who like to listen to police scanners.  But I want to talk...  and for that, I need the other half of the code.

And I'm not smart enough to write it myself :/

On Jun 5, 2012 6:00 PM, "William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...> wrote:

 

Not sure if any of you have seen this:

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Digital_Speech_Decoder_%28software_
package%29

Linux Based Decoder Software that supports:

• P25 Phase 1