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Re: Does Winlink do more than text messaging?

"Rick Muething" <rmuething@...>
 

David,
 
Winlink has tried over the years to support all viable new technologies.  This has included Pactor 1, 2,3, 4,  WINMOR (which was developed by me for Winlink and provided to others free of charge) as well as VHF Packet and D-Star (128 K baud).
 
FYI Winlink is run by a small team (about 6 or so) of all volunteer programmers and administrators. The cost of running the Winlink system (servers, software, licenses etc) is all covered by private and a few corporate donors.   Of course the bulk of the Winlink infrastructure is provided by the hundreds of dedicated sysops (HF and VHF/UHF) donating their time and equipment.
 
I have offered source code (VB.NET and C.NET VS 2010) and help (coached) several other developers but unfortunately many do not have the skills or more likely the commitment to finish ports to other platforms and support those ports.  Debugging, documenting and supporting this kind of code does take a real commitment.
 
We fully support efforts like the Universal Digital Radio and plan to purchase several when they become available and will work to add this if at all possible to the protocols supported by Winlink and also hope to use it to provide non internet bridging across existing packet networks.  While the initial costs may seem high it is important to remember the production volume of ham radio specific hardware (like TNCs) is always small compared to commercial or consumer gear.   Hopefully with acceptance and volume costs can be driven down.  But we definitely need to push to expand this component of the Ham radio technology.
 
We look forwarding to evaluating the Universal Digital Radio and hope other volunteer programmers will be encouraged to help integrate it into the Winlink network.
 
Rick Muething, KN6KB  Winlink Development Team
 

From: qrv@...
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 12:27 PM
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Does Winlink do more than text messaging?
 
 

Now that APRS is available for HF, not to mention a dozen
digital-mode apps, what is the value-added of the proprietary
Winlink app?

--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22

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Re: Critical Mass

Steve <stevewa206@...>
 

I agree, this is a new type of box on the market and the market will decide if it is embraced or not. One thing about the price though, lots of people seem to spend money in that price range for dual band radios, D-Star stuff, etc, not to mention HF gear. The only thing that comes close is the D-Star 1.2 Ghz box at $800 +.  There was a 440Mhz radio from Germany that could do the speed at $600 each, not including the TNC.
 
You can not compare it to a $25 used Linksys 802.11 box. It is apples and oranges when it comes to the radio part. If you only need to go 300 feet...buy a 802.11 box. You might be better comparing it to something like a Canopy or Alvarion multipoint system.
 
Personally, I think there will be a surge of sales and we will see what happens. People have been wanting more speed and versatility for a long long time!
 
Steve N0FPF

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Matthew Pitts <daywalker_blade_2004@...> wrote:
 

As I said in the other thread, the only thing that is really proprietary about Winlink 2000 is the support for any form of Pactor; they do support Linux via the Open Source community; they just don't have the resources (meaning development staff) to do the work themselves and still maintain the Windows applications they are working on.

As far as lower cost interfaces to existing equipment goes, these things do already exist, but to my knowledge there is nothing currently available that will handle the higher speeds that the UDR56K is capable of out of the box; I know that Kantronics did have a 70 cm high speed packet radio at one time, but I don't know if that is still available brand new, and it wouldn't be able to do the newer digital voice and data modes without work as far as I know.

HSMM-MESH will work on more than just the Linksys WRT series, as far as I know; it just needs to have support for the CPU used in the specific router (code is likely available from the OpenWRT or DD-WRT code bases to do this). This will have to happen as the WRT54G routers that are supported become more difficult to find new. I know there are other routers that would be quite appropriate to use for this, even if they would need modifications that the currently supported ones don't require.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU


From: "qrv@..." <qrv@...>
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 11:38 AM

Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Critical Mass

 
This has probably been asked and answered but I could not find the
thread ...

Will there be a version of this which uses existing hardware?

I find it very difficult to believe that we could get sufficient
density of users at $395. (or even $200) each.

I get that some will be willing to pay for plug-n-play - and a
repeater installation needs to be simple and small - so the all-
in-one solution makes sense in those contexts.

An add-on device that functions like a TNC between computer and
existing rig - and is in the $75. - $125. range should result in
widespread adoption.

Our systems are impossibly fragmented right now so I'd anticipate
considerable interest in a cross-system OS-platform-independent
device and app that are affordable for users.

BTW: I received the two routers ($50. for the pair including
shipping) and had them up and running on HSMM-Mesh in a very
short time -- it's really simple!

The Winlink2000 folks are pushing rally hard, as have been the
D-Link folks, as they see non-proprietary alternatives coming
at them and they know they cannot compete.

IMHO, YMMV, 73 ...

----------------------------------------------------------
I would probably use the hsmm-mesh as the primary network transport and
the UDR56K as whichever secondary system I happened to need. I'm even
contemplating pairing the UDR56K with a USRP and some open source
software as an emergency telephone system for use until normal telephone
service can be restored to an affected area.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22
Re: Critical Mass

"qrv@..." <qrv@...>
 

Steve,

I was unclear, I was not suggesting that 25w (or more) is not
necessary - just that many Hams already have the RF power on their desks
and in their cars - they need to rest of the system.

D-Star has *only* succeeded after many years of giving-away
$10's of thousand of dollars worth of gear and repeaters and probably
as much in advertising.

The adapter dongles which hit the market in recent years added
many users who otherwise might never have joined the D-Star system.
The used market has been important to multiplying adoption as well.

My observation is that the hardware answer is *and* vs *or*.

The all-in-one box for those who are willing to spend the extra
*and* an add-on box for those whose budgets and commitment are more limited. (The latter tends to be the majority of ultimate-adopters
of new technology.)

It is always fascinating to watch a new product in the market
and it is my hope that you are successful whichever path you take.

73, David KD4E

I agree, this is a new type of box on the market and the market will
decide if it is embraced or not. One thing about the price though,
lots of people seem to spend money in that price range for dual band
radios, D-Star stuff, etc, not to mention HF gear. The only thing
that comes close is the D-Star 1.2 Ghz box at $800 +. There was a
440Mhz radio from Germany that could do the speed at $600 each, not
including the TNC. You can not compare it to a $25 used Linksys
802.11 box. It is apples and oranges when it comes to the radio
part. If you only need to go 300 feet...buy a 802.11 box. You might
be better comparing it to something like a Canopy or Alvarion
multipoint system. Personally, I think there will be a surge of sales
and we will see what happens. People have been wanting more speed
and versatility for a long long time! Steve N0FPF
--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22
Re: Critical Mass

Steve <stevewa206@...>
 

You said.... "just that many Hams already have the RF power on their desks
and in their cars - they need to rest of the system."

You just hit the hammer on the nail...the problem is the desktop radio
and the mobile radio. They are not designed for high speed
data...period. They do not really do 1200 baud really well ! Hence
the new radio.

I would guess mode of the cost is in the radio and not the control
processor. It is made to connect up to your PC and you run everything
from the PC or small network.

This is why it is exciting to see a new radio.


Steve N0FPF

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 10:09 AM, qrv@... <qrv@...> wrote:
Steve,

I was unclear, I was not suggesting that 25w (or more) is not
necessary - just that many Hams already have the RF power on their desks
and in their cars - they need to rest of the system.

D-Star has *only* succeeded after many years of giving-away
$10's of thousand of dollars worth of gear and repeaters and probably
as much in advertising.

The adapter dongles which hit the market in recent years added
many users who otherwise might never have joined the D-Star system.
The used market has been important to multiplying adoption as well.

My observation is that the hardware answer is *and* vs *or*.

The all-in-one box for those who are willing to spend the extra
*and* an add-on box for those whose budgets and commitment are more
limited. (The latter tends to be the majority of ultimate-adopters
of new technology.)

It is always fascinating to watch a new product in the market
and it is my hope that you are successful whichever path you take.

73, David KD4E

I agree, this is a new type of box on the market and the market will
decide if it is embraced or not. One thing about the price though,
lots of people seem to spend money in that price range for dual band
radios, D-Star stuff, etc, not to mention HF gear. The only thing
that comes close is the D-Star 1.2 Ghz box at $800 +. There was a
440Mhz radio from Germany that could do the speed at $600 each, not
including the TNC. You can not compare it to a $25 used Linksys
802.11 box. It is apples and oranges when it comes to the radio
part. If you only need to go 300 feet...buy a 802.11 box. You might
be better comparing it to something like a Canopy or Alvarion
multipoint system. Personally, I think there will be a surge of sales
and we will see what happens. People have been wanting more speed
and versatility for a long long time! Steve N0FPF


--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Critical Mass

Bryan Hoyer <bhhoyer@...>
 

And another milepost on the road to critical mass.

Just received this from Army MARS

"My Winlink users are crying for something like this!  Any news on availability?"

Bryan
Linux in the Ham Shack tonight

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

At 6 PM (I think it starts at 6:15) Pacific Time tonight (9/4), I will be interviewed, live, by the "Linux in the Ham Shack" podcast http://stream.blacksparrowmedia.net:8008/lhslive about the UDR56K and NW Digital Radio

http://lhspodcast.info/ 

John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  
Any news on when the LHS interview will be posted?

Steve Stroh N8GNJ <steve.n8gnj@...>
 

Does anyone know when the interview with John Hays of NW Digital Radio with the Linux in the Ham Shack guys will be posted? The interview happened on 9/4 (pretty decent live streaming), but as of 9/5, no mention of that interview on the LHS website.

I wanted to re-listen as I had some significant dropouts and some in-person QRM.

Thanks,

Steve N8GNJ
Re: Any news on when the LHS interview will be posted?

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Steve,

I think they do a cleanup edit and a writeup before posting it to their site.  I'd suspect it will be a few days before it's up.

John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 1:09 PM, Steve Stroh N8GNJ <steve.n8gnj@...> wrote:
 

Does anyone know when the interview with John Hays of NW Digital Radio with the Linux in the Ham Shack guys will be posted? The interview happened on 9/4 (pretty decent live streaming), but as of 9/5, no mention of that interview on the LHS website.


I wanted to re-listen as I had some significant dropouts and some in-person QRM.

Thanks,

Steve N8GNJ
Re: Critical Mass

"brad_ka3yan" <bradm75@...>
 

Bryan,

I asked my state MARS director (Navy-MC MARS) about the use of this for our state and was told that Navy-MC MARS does not have any UHF frequencies. In other words, as an organization we cannot use this radio. It was a real bummer to hear since I think this would be a fabulous application for ECOM and statewide traffic routing.

Brad

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Hoyer <bhhoyer@...> wrote:

And another milepost on the road to critical mass.

Just received this from Army MARS

"My Winlink users are crying for something like this! Any news on availability?"

Bryan
Re: Critical Mass

"John K Scoggin, Jr" <aat3bf@...>
 

I was referring to use on the amateur bands.  MARS, to the best of my knowledge, has never had access to wideband UHF channels.  We had some channels in the 406-420 MHz in the past, but I believe they were lost when DHS started screaming for more…

 

john

 

From: UniversalDigitalRadio@... [mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of brad_ka3yan
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 12:52 PM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: Critical Mass

 

 

Bryan,

I asked my state MARS director (Navy-MC MARS) about the use of this for our state and was told that Navy-MC MARS does not have any UHF frequencies. In other words, as an organization we cannot use this radio. It was a real bummer to hear since I think this would be a fabulous application for ECOM and statewide traffic routing.

Brad

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., Bryan Hoyer <bhhoyer@...> wrote:
>
> And another milepost on the road to critical mass.
>
> Just received this from Army MARS
>
> "My Winlink users are crying for something like this! Any news on availability?"
>
> Bryan
>
Re: Critical Mass

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

I've been terribly busy of late, but thought I would take a few moments to share some thoughts on the topics in this thread.

Critical Mass

It all depends on your application.  The UDR56K-4 is a "platform radio" that can take on many different personalities and tasks.

RMS Gateway - critical mass 1, or 2 if you want to go above 1200 or 9600 bps. It can talk to existing RMS gateways and stations over the air and provide Internet connectivity to the rest of the Winlink/RMS ecosystem.

D-STAR Voice Half-Duplex Gateway - critical mass 1.  The UDR56K-4 can support both a gateway and a RF module function in one package, attach power, antenna, and Internet.  This will connect user radios into the whole D-STAR network.

D-STAR Data Access Point - critical mass 2.  Since there isn't another DD unit that performs on 70cm and at the data rates as the UDR56K-4, at least 2 units are required for operation.

AMPRnet/Net-44 - critical mass 1.  TCP/IP over AX.25 is available at 1200/9600 bps and as high as 56 kbps.

Mesh Networking/Self Healing Networks

There have been several people who have talked  about putting HSMM into the UDR56K-4.  I can report that olsrd compiles on the radio's ARM processor but we have not been able to do any testing at this point. I also don't have experience with the HSMM implementation to know if there are incompatibilities with standard OLSR.  This is not a priority for initial release of the radio, however, it would be interesting to have someone in the community provide what differences there might be and possibly take up the port and support of HSMM to the radio.  I have also taken a look at B.A.T.M.A.N. My main question about these protocols is can they scale back to to a 9600-56000 bps CDMA network?  When a protocol assumes a high data rate transport, it just may be too "chatty" for a lower speed network.

Certainly some of these protocols could run on a WiFi dongle attached to the radio, or the radio could be part of the mix via Ethernet or other transport.  I think a self healing network makes a lot of sense, we just have to keep in mind there are always tradeoffs.  With the UDR56K-4 you are trading bandwidth and data rate for power and propagation advantages.  This permits a network to be built with lower density of stations.  The frequency of node beacons needs to be tempered by the speed and number of adjacent nodes -- so a mobile station can run further against a base station before it needs to switch base nodes, but conversely topology updates may be slower.   It may be necessary for inventive hams to build up a light weight protocol that can create a balance between speed and network intelligence. Time will tell, but first we need to get the radio out with stated functionality.

John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  
Re: Critical Mass

Matthew Pitts <daywalker_blade_2004@...>
 

John,

From what I've been reading on the hsmm-mesh forum, there probably isn't a significant difference between the default olsrd and the one that is a part of the hsmm-mesh firmware. My thoughts at this point would be to use the mesh as primary local transport and have the UDR56K as an interconnection backbone between areas. I am planning some experimentation with a local ham that is interested in hsmm-mesh and will keep the group informed about the potential uses.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU



Mesh Networking/Self Healing Networks

There have been several people who have talked  about putting HSMM into the UDR56K-4.  I can report that olsrd compiles on the radio's ARM processor but we have not been able to do any testing at this point. I also don't have experience with the HSMM implementation to know if there are incompatibilities with standard OLSR.  This is not a priority for initial release of the radio, however, it would be interesting to have someone in the community provide what differences there might be and possibly take up the port and support of HSMM to the radio.  I have also taken a look at B.A.T.M.A.N. My main question about these protocols is can they scale back to to a 9600-56000 bps CDMA network?  When a protocol assumes a high data rate transport, it just may be too "chatty" for a lower speed network.

Certainly some of these protocols could run on a WiFi dongle attached to the radio, or the radio could be part of the mix via Ethernet or other transport.  I think a self healing network makes a lot of sense, we just have to keep in mind there are always tradeoffs.  With the UDR56K-4 you are trading bandwidth and data rate for power and propagation advantages.  This permits a network to be built with lower density of stations.  The frequency of node beacons needs to be tempered by the speed and number of adjacent nodes -- so a mobile station can run further against a base station before it needs to switch base nodes, but conversely topology updates may be slower.   It may be necessary for inventive hams to build up a light weight protocol that can create a balance between speed and network intelligence. Time will tell, but first we need to get the radio out with stated functionality.

John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  
Re: Critical Mass

"Jordan Hayes KG6UAE" <kg6uae@...>
 

My main question about these protocols is can they scale back
to to a 9600-56000 bps CDMA network?
I remember getting a LOT of work done using Telebit modems :-)

(for the children: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telebit )

/jordan KG6UAE
WIRES

"brainerdd" <dave@...>
 

Any chance of getting WIRES included? In our area, no one has a D-Star radio, but almost all have Yaesu's with WIRES.

Dave - WB6DHW
Kooskia, Idaho
Re: WIRES

Bryan Hoyer <bhhoyer@...>
 

WIRES is an analog system like IRLP and echolink.

Although we could do analog with our new design, we are focused primarily on the Digital Marketplace.

If we were to do something in analog, I note that IRLP has 1285 nodes in the USA while WIRES has 34.

Thanks for your interest,
Bryan - K7UDR
Re: WIRES

Matthew Pitts <daywalker_blade_2004@...>
 

Bryan,

There is also AllStar Link, but I'm not sure (yet) how to get it to play with the ARM processor in the UDR56K, as the main installers that I know of for it are x86 based as part of the OS installation. It does include support for Echolink and might also still handle IRLP; I will have to check at some point.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU


From: Bryan Hoyer To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:45 PM
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: WIRES

 
WIRES is an analog system like IRLP and echolink.

Although we could do analog with our new design, we are focused primarily on the Digital Marketplace.

If we were to do something in analog, I note that IRLP has 1285 nodes in the USA while WIRES has 34.

Thanks for your interest,
Bryan - K7UDR
Re: WIRES

"Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
 

At 10:23 AM 9/14/2012, you wrote:


Bryan,

There is also AllStar Link, but I'm not sure (yet) how to get it to play with the ARM processor in the UDR56K, as the main installers that I know of for it are x86 based as part of the OS installation. It does include support for Echolink and might also still handle IRLP; I will have to check at some point.
Echolink should work (using thelinkbox), IRLP requires some x86 binaries. You'd have to talk to David Cameron if you want IRLP support. AllStar supports Echolink as well as its native protocol. IRLP support was dropped a while ago, though I believe it may be possible to put back in as the source is available. This version of IRLP support also relies on some of the IRLP x86 binaries.

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com
Re: Linux in the Ham Shack tonight

Kenny Richards <richark@...>
 

I just noticed the podcast with John's interview is posted now.

73,
Kenny, KU7M

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:01 PM, John D. Hays <john@...> wrote:
 

At 6 PM (I think it starts at 6:15) Pacific Time tonight (9/4), I will be interviewed, live, by the "Linux in the Ham Shack" podcast http://stream.blacksparrowmedia.net:8008/lhslive about the UDR56K and NW Digital Radio

http://lhspodcast.info/ 

John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  
Engineering Update

"John" <john@...>
 

Net-44 New TOS/AUP

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

http://www.ampr.org/tos.txt

Still a little technical work to be done but start your planning for new IP focused amateur radio networks.

Need a HSMM network space?

Need a fixed  IP for a repeater, remote control station, gateway, ROIP, etc.

Need a few routable IP addresses for multiple instances of an application that uses a well known TCP or UDP port?

I have a few slides from my short presentation at DCC today that I will make available in the next few days.

A small working group, to which I was honored to be included, worked out guidelines for the creation of this AUP over the last few months and it was published today.

John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  
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