Date   

Re: Winlink vs. D-STAR

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

I'd like to generalize this question and answer.

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:00 PM, PE1RDW <pe1rdw@...wrote:

Will LinBPQ be suported as wel? or is winlink run trough BPQ?
--
73 Andre PE1RDW


Will "My Favorite Application" (MFA) be supported?

This is a more nuanced question than it appears.  The UDR56K-4 is an open platform, which means there will be applications and accessories that may come from NW Digital Radio (the manufacturer) or from 3rd parties (individuals, projects, and companies).

When asked if something is 'supported' there are different answers depending on the way it is implemented and delivered:
  1. The UDR56K-4, applications, and accessories as built by NW Digital Radio are supported by NW Digital Radio through a warranty, software updates and patches, and technical support.  NW Digital Radio will select certain applications for support based on market need and demand. (e.g. if 1000 customers want an application, it is more likely to be supported than one that has two or three interested customers.)
  2. There is software that can be installed based on the Linux distribution used (Debian).  This is usually a binary package with available source and is installed by a package manager (e.g. apt-get, synaptic, etc.)  These packages are 'supported' by their authors.  Their configuration and integration is left to the integrator, usually the owner of the UDR56K-4, with forums like this one where a community can provide experience and support.  An example of this is gpsd.
  3. Software or accessories that are generally available but may need to be adapted to work with the UDR56K-4.  An example may be a program that needs ported to the UDR56K-4 before it can be used. These are up to the individual to port themselves or find like minded members of the community to assist. Since the UDR56K-4 is an open platform, the sources of NW Digital Radio software will be available for review to aid the developer.  Support is solely on those who do the port or adaptation.  
If one has a program to port before their radio is delivered, generally a Sheeva Plug or Raspberry Pi (with soft floating point Debian) is a good test platform.  If you can compile and run the code on these devices they will likely be a simple port to the UDR56K-4.

If you are writing for the UDR56K-4 remember it does not have a display, so your programs are better served if they are command line / daemon programs.  If you need a display and are writing from scratch, we encourage the use of Web based interfaces.  If you want maximum interactivity and low overhead using the web look at node.js and socket.io for delivering your UI. Since this is a Debian system it is possible to use xrdp, vnc, or the X-Window system to remote GUI programs, but running GUI, even over the wire, adds overhead.

We look to have many programs ported and supported on the UDR56K-4 and this forum is a great place to share ideas, collaborate, announce, and support those applications.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 12:00 PM, PE1RDW <pe1rdw@...> wrote:

Will LinBPQ be suported as wel? or is winlink run trough BPQ?
--
73 Andre PE1RDW


Re: Winlink vs. D-STAR

PE1RDW <pe1rdw@...>
 

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:27:20 +0200, k7udr <bhhoyer@...> wrote:

Will LinBPQ be suported as wel? or is winlink run trough BPQ?
--
73 Andre PE1RDW
Neither, we use the linux AX.25 stack and add
RMS GW: for the gateway
Paclink UNIX: for the client

Bryan K7UDR
ok, thanks, can we compile our own software?
because if that is the case we can put LinBPQ on it ourselfs

--
73 Andre PE1RDW


Re: Winlink vs. D-STAR

"k7udr" <bhhoyer@...>
 

Will LinBPQ be suported as wel? or is winlink run trough BPQ?
--
73 Andre PE1RDW
Neither, we use the linux AX.25 stack and add
RMS GW: for the gateway
Paclink UNIX: for the client

Bryan K7UDR


Re: Winlink vs. D-STAR

PE1RDW <pe1rdw@...>
 

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 19:08:45 +0200, k7udr <bhhoyer@...> wrote:

Hi Jim,

There's a lot of overlap in those numbers as very few orders indicated D-STAR only. APRS and Winlink are well represented.

60% of orders classified themselves as Experimenters, meaning they're going to buy it then figure out what they want to do with it. 5% of orders clicked EVERY application.

For the server applications; RMS, IGate and ircDDB the UDR will be single purpose if it's up 24/7. In your shack or vehicle you might choose to run UDR Tracker then switch to winlink to check your mail and later use the DV board for voice.

Bryan - K7UDR
Will LinBPQ be suported as wel? or is winlink run trough BPQ?
--
73 Andre PE1RDW


Re: Winlink vs. D-STAR

"k7udr" <bhhoyer@...>
 

Hi Jim,

There's a lot of overlap in those numbers as very few orders indicated D-STAR only. APRS and Winlink are well represented.

60% of orders classified themselves as Experimenters, meaning they're going to buy it then figure out what they want to do with it. 5% of orders clicked EVERY application.

For the server applications; RMS, IGate and ircDDB the UDR will be single purpose if it's up 24/7. In your shack or vehicle you might choose to run UDR Tracker then switch to winlink to check your mail and later use the DV board for voice.

Bryan - K7UDR

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "jim.santee" <jsantee@...> wrote:

I have noticed on the order map that a vast majority of the orders are for D-STAR. What few users we have in our area (Astoria, Oregon) are mainly Winlink. Are those who are ordering D-STAR have a user base or they are being ordered with the idea of developing a user base? This is a "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" I am very interested in D-STAR but I can't outrun my user base. Comments?

Jim
KF7NE


Winlink vs. D-STAR

"jim.santee" <jsantee@...>
 

I have noticed on the order map that a vast majority of the orders are for D-STAR. What few users we have in our area (Astoria, Oregon) are mainly Winlink. Are those who are ordering D-STAR have a user base or they are being ordered with the idea of developing a user base? This is a "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" I am very interested in D-STAR but I can't outrun my user base. Comments?

Jim
KF7NE


Re: DV3000 Add-on card?

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Yes.



John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Douglas <dperv27@...> wrote:
 

Can the DV3000 Add-on card be installed by the end-user if purchased separately?

--73 de N1OBU (FN41AM)


DV3000 Add-on card?

"Douglas" <dperv27@...>
 

Can the DV3000 Add-on card be installed by the end-user if purchased separately?

--73 de N1OBU (FN41AM)


Re: Multiple Applications / Modes simultaneously running on the UDR56K-4

Bill Vodall <wa7nwp@...>
 

There are other things one could do, but there are issues with the reality of the world we play in.
Reality for some is wilder then some fiction...


For example, in 9k6 packet mode one could simultaneously run RMS Gateway and APRS IGate in software. The problem is they are on 2 different channels, each of which is a dedicated resource (please don't suggest scanning as a solution).
Why wouldn't scanning be a solution? Timing issues yes but seems it
shouldn't just be written off. Anyway the RMS Gateway and APRS IGate
functionality are not really interoperative... A LAN channel would
do well to use APRS (ala an Igate or two) to announce resources such
as RMS or other gateways... There's plenty of bandwidth for multiple
resources to share.

73
Bill, WA7NWP


Re: Multiple Applications / Modes simultaneously running on the UDR56K-4

Mark L Friedlander <marklfriedlander@...>
 

 I knew the UDR56K-4 could do DSTAR data in DV mode but wasn't aware until John posted that the UDR56K also had DSTAR DD capability. Aside from the frequency, power and speed, does the UDR56K-4 DD mode function in the same manner as the Icom ID-1?

Can one use two UDR56K-4 as a radio Ethernet bridge to interface two computers over the air?

73 Mark KV4I




On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 10:49 AM, k7udr <bhhoyer@...> wrote:
 

Thanks John for getting this thread going.

As John pointed out the radio is in one mode at a time, so running D-STAR and packet apps simultaneously is out for now.

There are other things one could do, but there are issues with the reality of the world we play in.

For example, in 9k6 packet mode one could simultaneously run RMS Gateway and APRS IGate in software. The problem is they are on 2 different channels, each of which is a dedicated resource (please don't suggest scanning as a solution).

This is why I proposed the hailing channel for packet radio at DCC last September (I'll be giving the presentation again at Comms Academy in Seattle).

The UDR is the first radio capable of implementing such a concept. I'm sure all of you have your own ideas what we might do with it. The successful ideas will be those that local groups implement, then publish their results for others to use.

Let the experiments begin!



Re: Multiple Applications / Modes simultaneously running on the UDR56K-4

"k7udr" <bhhoyer@...>
 

Thanks John for getting this thread going.

As John pointed out the radio is in one mode at a time, so running D-STAR and packet apps simultaneously is out for now.

There are other things one could do, but there are issues with the reality of the world we play in.

For example, in 9k6 packet mode one could simultaneously run RMS Gateway and APRS IGate in software. The problem is they are on 2 different channels, each of which is a dedicated resource (please don't suggest scanning as a solution).

This is why I proposed the hailing channel for packet radio at DCC last September (I'll be giving the presentation again at Comms Academy in Seattle).

The UDR is the first radio capable of implementing such a concept. I'm sure all of you have your own ideas what we might do with it. The successful ideas will be those that local groups implement, then publish their results for others to use.

Let the experiments begin!


Re: Multiple Applications / Modes simultaneously running on the UDR56K-4

Mark L Friedlander <marklfriedlander@...>
 

Thanks for addressing my question. I see now that available RAM might be an obstacle to running both WL2K and a Ratflector at the same time.

I'm presently running a Ratflector (as well as xtightvnc, a web server and ftp server) on my 512 MB Raspberry Pi with only 162 MB free so setting up a Ratflector on the 256 MB UDR56K might be the only app I can run but it looks like a fun opportunity to experiment.

Thanks,
73 Mark KV4I



On Sun, Apr 7, 2013 at 5:49 AM, John <john@...> wrote:
 

Mark (KV4I) asks:


For example, can I run a Winlink 2000 RMS Gateway and a
D-RATs Ratflector simultaneously?


NW DIgital Radio will have a pre-packaged RMS Gateway for the UDR56K-4

We have not profiled running D-RATS Ratflector on the UDR56K-4.  It does require a fair amount of memory, so observation of it running in parallel with other applications is prudent. 

Installing D-RATS on the UDR56K-4 (as root or using sudo)

cp add-apt-repository.sh.txt /usr/sbin/add-apt-repository
chmod +x /usr/sbin/add-apt-repository
add-apt-repository ppa:ubuntu-hams-updates/ppa
apt-get update
apt-get install d-rats glade xterm twm

(You will also need to run an X-Window server on your GUI system, if you use Windows you can install xrdp on the UDR56K -- along with xterm, and use Remote Desktop -- running a GUI such as vncserver, X-Windows, etc. does add overhead to the radio's server -- daemons with web interfaces are more efficient and recommended.)

Hopefully this information will be helpful in your planning.  The D-RATS package can run the Internet server on the UDR56K-4 processor (untested but have successfully installed and executed it) = I have not tested it with an external radio (USB to D-STAR radio) yet.  We have not setup the UDR56K-4 radio for direct connection to D-RATS at this point.



Re: Multiple Applications / Modes simultaneously running on the UDR56K-4

"John" <john@...>
 

Mark (KV4I) asks:

For example, can I run a Winlink 2000 RMS Gateway and a
D-RATs Ratflector simultaneously?


NW DIgital Radio will have a pre-packaged RMS Gateway for the UDR56K-4

We have not profiled running D-RATS Ratflector on the UDR56K-4.  It does require a fair amount of memory, so observation of it running in parallel with other applications is prudent. 

Installing D-RATS on the UDR56K-4 (as root or using sudo)

wget http://blog.anantshri.info/content/uploads/2010/09/add-apt-repository.sh.txt
cp add-apt-repository.sh.txt /usr/sbin/add-apt-repository
chmod +x /usr/sbin/add-apt-repository
add-apt-repository ppa:ubuntu-hams-updates/ppa
apt-get update
apt-get install d-rats glade xterm twm

(You will also need to run an X-Window server on your GUI system, if you use Windows you can install xrdp on the UDR56K -- along with xterm, and use Remote Desktop -- running a GUI such as vncserver, X-Windows, etc. does add overhead to the radio's server -- daemons with web interfaces are more efficient and recommended.)

Hopefully this information will be helpful in your planning.  The D-RATS package can run the Internet server on the UDR56K-4 processor (untested but have successfully installed and executed it) = I have not tested it with an external radio (USB to D-STAR radio) yet.  We have not setup the UDR56K-4 radio for direct connection to D-RATS at this point.


Multiple Applications / Modes simultaneously running on the UDR56K-4

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

General guidelines:
  1. We don't have an exhaustive list of every possible combination of applications an operator might want to run.  We will not be able to tell the impact of every combination that you can come up with. (And you really want us to stay focused on getting basic modes running individually first, right? Remember we are a 4 person team, with some support from spouses and friends.)  We'll try to give high level answers, but often it will be a best "guess" with the proof left to the implementer.
  2. We will have standard configurations for common uses, such as RMS Gateway, iGate, D-STAR Gateway, D-STAR Voice, D-STAR data, for ease of use by those who have a specific application in mind.  If one is mixing applications, then it may be trial and error, combined with community support via this forum.
  3. This radio has a built-in Linux "server" computer.  It is reasonably powerful, but not as powerful as current generation desktop systems, so one should decide what is an efficient use of its computer and what might be offloaded to another computer and be accessed via the network.
  4. The UDR56K-4 has one half-duplex 70cm radio, at first release it will not be dynamically mode agile, e.g. if you want to run AX.25 at 9600 baud, you set the radio to that mode.  If you want it to be a D-STAR DV radio (including D-RATS) you set the radio to that mode, If you want it to be a D-STAR DD radio you set it to that mode. (Like going between USB, FM, AM, and CW on your rig -- you set it for the current task.)   The radio isn't going to automatically switch between operating modes on its own (maybe in the future). 
  5. Some possible configurations [no product commitments in this list, it is just of some ideas we have thought about -- as we try them out, we'll provide application notes on the company website over the next weeks and months]:
    • One might hook a TNC and Analog radio through USB port to gateway between legacy AX.25 systems and the higher speed UDR56K-4
    • One might hook a node adapter or DVRPTR board to a USB on the UDR56K-4 to add a receiver (for a repeater or second 'hotspot' or for diversity receive) or a second node to the D-STAR Gateway.
    • One might interconnect with servers and other devices over Ethernet or Wifi - for example a Raspberry Pi and TNC-Pi board can relay traffic over Ethernet to the UDR56K-4
    • One could conceivably run a USB WiFi access point or MESH node in conjunction with the UDR56K-4 
  6. Some of these configurations have been partially tested, some should just work but haven't been tested, and so forth. 
We need to walk a bit before we run :) 

We hope that users will "run with their ideas" and share what they learn on this forum -- as soon as we can get radios built and shipped!  If we see a challenge to what someone is proposing, we'll try to explain alternatives :)

[Links to specific examples of add-on devices is for reference only. NW Digital Radio is not affiliated with these companies or products and cannot represent nor endorse their specific capabilities or offerings. The reader is responsible for their own due diligence when searching for suitable enhancement products to use with their UDR56K-4.]


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  






Re: What works out of the box?

"k7udr" <bhhoyer@...>
 

I'm going to start a new thread and reply to this tomorrow.

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., Mark L Friedlander <marklfriedlander@...> wrote:

Good question. For example, can I run a Winlink 2000 RMS Gateway and a
D-RATs Ratflector simultaneously?

73 Mark KV4I



On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Douglas <dperv27@...> wrote:

**


All,

What modes/functions work simultaneously?

--73 de N1OBU (FN41AM)


--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "k7udr" <bhhoyer@> wrote:

I'm just thinking of a repeater tied up with dead air possibly annoying
voice users. I suppose one could use a dv dongle and capture an AMBE
encoded canned message to include.

There are certainly use cases where this would be ok.

John's our D-STAR expert so I'll let him answer any further discussion.

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., Mark L Friedlander
<marklfriedlander@> wrote:

Thanks for the informative post, It answered many of my questions too
but
now I have to ask why did you write, "yes you could use D-RATS with no
voice although I wouldn't recommend it." Why don't you recommend this?
I
was thinking I'd host a D-RATs Ratflector on a UDR56K.

73 Mark KV4I


Re: What works out of the box?

Mark L Friedlander <marklfriedlander@...>
 

Good question. For example, can I run a Winlink 2000 RMS Gateway and a D-RATs Ratflector simultaneously?

73 Mark KV4I



On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Douglas <dperv27@...> wrote:
 

All,

What modes/functions work simultaneously?

--73 de N1OBU (FN41AM)



--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "k7udr" wrote:
>
> I'm just thinking of a repeater tied up with dead air possibly annoying voice users. I suppose one could use a dv dongle and capture an AMBE encoded canned message to include.
>
> There are certainly use cases where this would be ok.
>
> John's our D-STAR expert so I'll let him answer any further discussion.
>
> --- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., Mark L Friedlander wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the informative post, It answered many of my questions too but
> > now I have to ask why did you write, "yes you could use D-RATS with no
> > voice although I wouldn't recommend it." Why don't you recommend this? I
> > was thinking I'd host a D-RATs Ratflector on a UDR56K.
> >
> > 73 Mark KV4I
>



Re: What works out of the box?

"Douglas" <dperv27@...>
 

All,

What modes/functions work simultaneously?

--73 de N1OBU (FN41AM)

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "k7udr" <bhhoyer@...> wrote:

I'm just thinking of a repeater tied up with dead air possibly annoying voice users. I suppose one could use a dv dongle and capture an AMBE encoded canned message to include.

There are certainly use cases where this would be ok.

John's our D-STAR expert so I'll let him answer any further discussion.

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., Mark L Friedlander <marklfriedlander@> wrote:

Thanks for the informative post, It answered many of my questions too but
now I have to ask why did you write, "yes you could use D-RATS with no
voice although I wouldn't recommend it." Why don't you recommend this? I
was thinking I'd host a D-RATs Ratflector on a UDR56K.

73 Mark KV4I


Re: What works out of the box?

Ronny Julian <k4rjjradio@...>
 

Never seen a USB headset with PTT.  Got a web link to anyone that sells one ready built?


A USB Headset with PTT or vox will allow you to use the UDR in DV mode. Control is via the web app.y DigestUnsubscribeTerms of UseSend us Feedback
.



Re: What works out of the box?

Mark L Friedlander <marklfriedlander@...>
 

I've never been a fan of using voice capable repeaters for DSTAR data applications such as D_RATS. I agree that using data modes on a voice repeater is annoying to voice users. Anecdotal evidence also indicates that data over a voice repeater (especially linked repeaters) introduces undesirable latency.

I was thinking of using a 70 cm simplex frequency for one port on a D-RATS Ratflector with a second port connected to the Internet to allow D-RATS messages to Internet recipients to originate over RF.

73 Mark KV4I


On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:06 PM, k7udr <bhhoyer@...> wrote:
 

I'm just thinking of a repeater tied up with dead air possibly annoying voice users. I suppose one could use a dv dongle and capture an AMBE encoded canned message to include.

There are certainly use cases where this would be ok.

John's our D-STAR expert so I'll let him answer any further discussion.



--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., Mark L Friedlander wrote:
>
> Thanks for the informative post, It answered many of my questions too but
> now I have to ask why did you write, "yes you could use D-RATS with no
> voice although I wouldn't recommend it." Why don't you recommend this? I
> was thinking I'd host a D-RATs Ratflector on a UDR56K.
>
> 73 Mark KV4I



Re: What works out of the box?

Charles Blackburn <young_gun262001@...>
 

not having boned up on the processing power of the UDR,, but if it's doing all the transcoding of the dstar streams in software, then to host more than one stream it may not have enough "oomph" to do it.

just my tuppence.

charlie