Date   

Re: Opinions on SI

Michael Schulz <mschulz@...>
 

Some comments from someone who actually is from Germany and grew up on the
metric system. And yes, sorry to say but the US is pretty much the only country in
the western world on he Imperial system, the UK uses a mix of both.

The k in Kilogram indeed is lower case as is the c the d the m (centi, deci, milli).
There is a space between the 70 and the cm or m or km or mm or you name it.

Not so sure at the moment about the DC 12V .. most I have seen is simply 12 V or
220 V with either ~ (AC) or = (DC) as leading sign.

bps vs b/s is the same. You need to define the relation of one unit to the other. If you
omit that it's not clear. If I say b/s (or km/h or m/h) the it's unmistakenly defining the
relationship between the two. Of course everybody in the IT field knows what bps are,
but outside maybe not :).

As a side note, it's always interesting to see as a European living in this very nice country
how easily offended Americans can get when they have to learn or deal with the fact that
the US is not the center of the universe, and not everybody is looking to the US only to see
how to do things.

73 Mike K5TRI


On 11/24/2012 9:56 AM, qrv@... wrote:
 

Who created that "training exercise" and who claims it is taught
worldwide and accepted everywhere?

It is a favorite hobby of wanna-be one-world everything to claim
that the USA is wrong ... and an island of non-conformity ... sigh.

I think someone is borrowing credibility for pet-peeves by claiming
consensus where it does not exist.

> After a recent presentation I was approached by a fellow Ham who
> noted that my presentation did not conform to SI (International
> system of units). He offered a training exercise in the proper usage
> which I accepted. I must admit, I was ignorant of SI prior to that
> time.
>
> Apparently, SI is taught in grade school throughout the world,
> whereas my US education seems to be lacking.
>
> So I went through my material fixing obvious offenders, like proper
> capitalization and the use of a space between value and units.
>
> the K in kilo should be lowercase 70cm should be 70 cm 12VDC should
> be DC 12 V (looks pretty awkward to me)
>
> I then learned that bps should be b/s and dBm don't exist. Further
> ppm is incorrect.
>
> Now I've never seen b/s used by anyone, anywhere and I certainly
> wouldn't want a table of values expressed as:
>
> dB referenced to 1 mW
>
> instead of dBm
>
> When I purchase an oscillator, tolerance is expressed in ppm, so
> apparently the manufacturers are unaware of their non-conforming
> usage.
>
> Am I out of touch with reality? Are you offended by 56 kbps?
>
> I'd like to hear others thoughts on this, particularly those of you
> educated somewhere other than the US
>
> Bryan

--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22



Re: Opinions on SI

"Rick Muething" <rmuething@...>
 

Well Bryan,
 
The international screw thread committee was supposed to standardize screw sizes and threads in the early 19th century ....of course they didn’t do too good a job so now we have US Fine, US Coarse, Metric, each with many variations etc.  much to the benefit of those making wrenches, sockets and drivers!)  As long as you are communicating clearly I don’t think it is a big deal.  For me: (a US educated Engineer)There is no confusion with:
70cm vs. 70 cm,
12VDC  vs DC 12 V  (I am sure 12VDC is more common)
bps vs. b/s
dBm
or ppm (most xtals and oscillators are specified in ppm)
 
So I would vote use standards where appropriate (please avoid furlongs per forte night when possible! )  and push on!  Those that want to retranslate to the latest “approved” standards can contribute by doing a translation if necessary.
 
Keep up the good work!
 
Rick Muething, KN6KB
 
 

From: k7udr
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 12:37 PM
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Opinions on SI
 
 

After a recent presentation I was approached by a fellow Ham who noted that my presentation did not conform to SI (International system of units). He offered a training exercise in the proper usage which I accepted. I must admit, I was ignorant of SI prior to that time.

Apparently, SI is taught in grade school throughout the world, whereas my US education seems to be lacking.

So I went through my material fixing obvious offenders, like proper capitalization and the use of a space between value and units.

the K in kilo should be lowercase
70cm should be 70 cm
12VDC should be DC 12 V (looks pretty awkward to me)

I then learned that bps should be b/s and dBm don't exist. Further ppm is incorrect.

Now I've never seen b/s used by anyone, anywhere and I certainly wouldn't want a table of values expressed as:

dB referenced to 1 mW

instead of dBm

When I purchase an oscillator, tolerance is expressed in ppm, so apparently the manufacturers are unaware of their non-conforming usage.

Am I out of touch with reality? Are you offended by 56 kbps?

I'd like to hear others thoughts on this, particularly those of you educated somewhere other than the US

Bryan


Re: Opinions on SI

Jeff Francis™ <jeff@...>
 

As a Sales Engineer (ie, someone who communicates technical data and solutions for a living), I've adopted the very pragmatic approach of "speak in terms your audience will recognize, appreciate, relate to, and understand", regardless of personal feelings, standards, conventions, or anything else.  Be flexible, be conversant with all the various standards, and know your data well enough to convert it on-the-fly to fit the needs of your audience.  As a rule of thumb, the best you can do is to please 80% of your audience.  Just make sure it's the right 80%.  Sometimes it all comes down to just one guy, and to hell with all the rest.  It's all a grand psychological game that you have to learn to play to be a solid communicator.  In the end, it's about moving data from my head to your head.  I work in the area of network and computer security.  I have an entirely different vocabulary and style that I use when communicating the exact same information to the networking/security group of a Fortune 100 company, a public school district, a regional healthcare provider, a talk at a convention or show, a university, people I meet at random who ask what I do for a living, and my peers within my company.  Sometimes all of these in a single day.  You'll never make everybody happy.  Learn to read your audience, and tailor your presentation to their needs.  What's "right" for one group is completely "wrong" for another.  There's no objective right and wrong in cases like this.  Every group has their own standards, and you either tailor your talk to their standards, or you don't fit in (ie, you're "wrong").  Europe is different than the US.  I just spend a week in England adjusting to their vocabulary and ways of doing things.  It's not right or wrong, nor is it entirely better or worse.  But it's different, and the better and quicker you adapt to the differences, the more effectively you communicate.  The Brits are entirely conversant in American English, and you'll get what you're asking for if you ask for the parking garage, the elevator, or the intersection.  But you'll get your answer with a much different attitude if you ask for the car park, the lift, or the crossroads.  And sometimes that matters.

N0GQ


On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 9:37 AM, k7udr <bhhoyer@...> wrote:
 

After a recent presentation I was approached by a fellow Ham who noted that my presentation did not conform to SI (International system of units). He offered a training exercise in the proper usage which I accepted. I must admit, I was ignorant of SI prior to that time.

Apparently, SI is taught in grade school throughout the world, whereas my US education seems to be lacking.

So I went through my material fixing obvious offenders, like proper capitalization and the use of a space between value and units.

the K in kilo should be lowercase
70cm should be 70 cm
12VDC should be DC 12 V (looks pretty awkward to me)

I then learned that bps should be b/s and dBm don't exist. Further ppm is incorrect.

Now I've never seen b/s used by anyone, anywhere and I certainly wouldn't want a table of values expressed as:

dB referenced to 1 mW

instead of dBm

When I purchase an oscillator, tolerance is expressed in ppm, so apparently the manufacturers are unaware of their non-conforming usage.

Am I out of touch with reality? Are you offended by 56 kbps?

I'd like to hear others thoughts on this, particularly those of you educated somewhere other than the US

Bryan




--
-=jeff=-


Re: Opinions on SI

Darren Long <darren.long@...>
 

Comments in-line.


On 24/11/12 17:37, k7udr wrote:
 

After a recent presentation I was approached by a fellow Ham who noted that my presentation did not conform to SI (International system of units). He offered a training exercise in the proper usage which I accepted. I must admit, I was ignorant of SI prior to that time.

Apparently, SI is taught in grade school throughout the world, whereas my US education seems to be lacking.

So I went through my material fixing obvious offenders, like proper capitalization and the use of a space between value and units.

the K in kilo should be lowercase

Indeed.

70cm should be 70 cm
12VDC should be DC 12 V (looks pretty awkward to me)


The former versions look better to me.  Better 70cm than 2.3ft.


I then learned that bps should be b/s and dBm don't exist. Further ppm is incorrect.

Either bps or b/s is fine with me, as is ppm.


Now I've never seen b/s used by anyone, anywhere and I certainly wouldn't want a table of values expressed as:

dB referenced to 1 mW

instead of dBm


dBm FTW!


When I purchase an oscillator, tolerance is expressed in ppm, so apparently the manufacturers are unaware of their non-conforming usage.

Am I out of touch with reality? Are you offended by 56 kbps?

I'd like to hear others thoughts on this, particularly those of you educated somewhere other than the US


Those are my thoughts.  I learned the SI system at school and have an engineering degree.  I may laugh at the imperial units system on a regular basis but there's nothing wrong with the examples you've quoted. 

I'd rather not get drawn into a discussion on gibibits and those other awful prefixes though.  Confusion often arises from the notion that 1kB can not be sent in 8 seconds through a 1kb/s channel, as 1kB is 1*2^10 bytes and 1kb/s is 1*10^3 bits per seconds, but more confusion arises from using ridiculous prefixes.  For that reason alone, I prefer sticking to the base unit of bps or b/s.

I think you've been trolled :P

Cheers,

Darren, G0HWW


Re: Opinions on SI

"qrv@..." <qrv@...>
 

Who created that "training exercise" and who claims it is taught
worldwide and accepted everywhere?

It is a favorite hobby of wanna-be one-world everything to claim
that the USA is wrong ... and an island of non-conformity ... sigh.

I think someone is borrowing credibility for pet-peeves by claiming
consensus where it does not exist.

After a recent presentation I was approached by a fellow Ham who
noted that my presentation did not conform to SI (International
system of units). He offered a training exercise in the proper usage
which I accepted. I must admit, I was ignorant of SI prior to that
time.

Apparently, SI is taught in grade school throughout the world,
whereas my US education seems to be lacking.

So I went through my material fixing obvious offenders, like proper
capitalization and the use of a space between value and units.

the K in kilo should be lowercase 70cm should be 70 cm 12VDC should
be DC 12 V (looks pretty awkward to me)

I then learned that bps should be b/s and dBm don't exist. Further
ppm is incorrect.

Now I've never seen b/s used by anyone, anywhere and I certainly
wouldn't want a table of values expressed as:

dB referenced to 1 mW

instead of dBm

When I purchase an oscillator, tolerance is expressed in ppm, so
apparently the manufacturers are unaware of their non-conforming
usage.

Am I out of touch with reality? Are you offended by 56 kbps?

I'd like to hear others thoughts on this, particularly those of you
educated somewhere other than the US

Bryan
--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22


Opinions on SI

"k7udr" <bhhoyer@...>
 

After a recent presentation I was approached by a fellow Ham who noted that my presentation did not conform to SI (International system of units). He offered a training exercise in the proper usage which I accepted. I must admit, I was ignorant of SI prior to that time.

Apparently, SI is taught in grade school throughout the world, whereas my US education seems to be lacking.

So I went through my material fixing obvious offenders, like proper capitalization and the use of a space between value and units.

the K in kilo should be lowercase
70cm should be 70 cm
12VDC should be DC 12 V (looks pretty awkward to me)

I then learned that bps should be b/s and dBm don't exist. Further ppm is incorrect.

Now I've never seen b/s used by anyone, anywhere and I certainly wouldn't want a table of values expressed as:

dB referenced to 1 mW

instead of dBm

When I purchase an oscillator, tolerance is expressed in ppm, so apparently the manufacturers are unaware of their non-conforming usage.

Am I out of touch with reality? Are you offended by 56 kbps?

I'd like to hear others thoughts on this, particularly those of you educated somewhere other than the US

Bryan


Re: Net-44 New TOS/AUP

"Richard ke7xo" <ke7xo@...>
 

as one who prefers Windows, I feel really good about myself now...

Richard

sloppy MS code and security and their growing Apple-like
assumption that all users are dumb rubes.

Thanks! & 73,

David KD4E


Re: Net-44 New TOS/AUP

"qrv@..." <qrv@...>
 

John,

I believe that what you are doing is the most important
modern development in Amateur Radio - bar none.

It sure would make real sense for our communications
hobby to not be chopped-up into tiny mode-fiefdoms that cannot
cross-communicate.

At a minimum a simple text message should be able to
hop across modes in order to make it point-to-point. This
would be invaluable for emergency communications as well as
portable communications where antennas and power-levels can
be a challenge.

I have long-since lost what little coding and scripting
skills I once owned but sure would like to help with field
testing as that time comes.

FYI: I have a Linux-only setup here - no time for the
sloppy MS code and security and their growing Apple-like
assumption that all users are dumb rubes.

Thanks! & 73,

David KD4E

http://www.ampr.org/tos.txt

Still a little technical work to be done but start your planning for
new IP focused amateur radio networks.

Need a HSMM network space?

Need a fixed IP for a repeater, remote control station, gateway,
ROIP, etc.

Need a few routable IP addresses for multiple instances of an
application that uses a well known TCP or UDP port?

I have a few slides from my short presentation at DCC today that I
will make available in the next few days.

A small working group, to which I was honored to be included, worked
out guidelines for the creation of this AUP over the last few months
and it was published today.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


John D. Hays
K7VE PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 <http://k7ve.org/blog>
<http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>

--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22


Re: Net-44 New TOS/AUP

Kristoff Bonne <kristoff@...>
 

Hi John,



On 22-09-12 06:47, John D. Hays wrote:
 

http://www.ampr.org/tos.txt

Still a little technical work to be done but start your planning for new IP focused amateur radio networks.

Need a HSMM network space?
Need a fixed  IP for a repeater, remote control station, gateway, ROIP, etc.
Need a few routable IP addresses for multiple instances of an application that uses a well known TCP or UDP port?
I have a few slides from my short presentation at DCC today that I will make available in the next few days.
A small working group, to which I was honored to be included, worked out guidelines for the creation of this AUP over the last few months and it was published today.
To bad the DCC presentations are not live streamed on the internet.

Are the documents of the working-group already available somewhere?





John D. Hays
73
Kristoff - ON1ARF


Net-44 New TOS/AUP

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

http://www.ampr.org/tos.txt

Still a little technical work to be done but start your planning for new IP focused amateur radio networks.

Need a HSMM network space?

Need a fixed  IP for a repeater, remote control station, gateway, ROIP, etc.

Need a few routable IP addresses for multiple instances of an application that uses a well known TCP or UDP port?

I have a few slides from my short presentation at DCC today that I will make available in the next few days.

A small working group, to which I was honored to be included, worked out guidelines for the creation of this AUP over the last few months and it was published today.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


Engineering Update

"John" <john@...>
 


Re: Linux in the Ham Shack tonight

Kenny Richards <richark@...>
 

I just noticed the podcast with John's interview is posted now.

73,
Kenny, KU7M

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:01 PM, John D. Hays <john@...> wrote:
 

At 6 PM (I think it starts at 6:15) Pacific Time tonight (9/4), I will be interviewed, live, by the "Linux in the Ham Shack" podcast http://stream.blacksparrowmedia.net:8008/lhslive about the UDR56K and NW Digital Radio

http://lhspodcast.info/ 


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



Re: WIRES

"Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
 

At 10:23 AM 9/14/2012, you wrote:


Bryan,

There is also AllStar Link, but I'm not sure (yet) how to get it to play with the ARM processor in the UDR56K, as the main installers that I know of for it are x86 based as part of the OS installation. It does include support for Echolink and might also still handle IRLP; I will have to check at some point.
Echolink should work (using thelinkbox), IRLP requires some x86 binaries. You'd have to talk to David Cameron if you want IRLP support. AllStar supports Echolink as well as its native protocol. IRLP support was dropped a while ago, though I believe it may be possible to put back in as the source is available. This version of IRLP support also relies on some of the IRLP x86 binaries.

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com


Re: WIRES

Matthew Pitts <daywalker_blade_2004@...>
 

Bryan,

There is also AllStar Link, but I'm not sure (yet) how to get it to play with the ARM processor in the UDR56K, as the main installers that I know of for it are x86 based as part of the OS installation. It does include support for Echolink and might also still handle IRLP; I will have to check at some point.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU



From: Bryan Hoyer To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:45 PM
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: WIRES

 
WIRES is an analog system like IRLP and echolink.

Although we could do analog with our new design, we are focused primarily on the Digital Marketplace.

If we were to do something in analog, I note that IRLP has 1285 nodes in the USA while WIRES has 34.

Thanks for your interest,
Bryan - K7UDR



Re: WIRES

Bryan Hoyer <bhhoyer@...>
 

WIRES is an analog system like IRLP and echolink.

Although we could do analog with our new design, we are focused primarily on the Digital Marketplace.

If we were to do something in analog, I note that IRLP has 1285 nodes in the USA while WIRES has 34.

Thanks for your interest,
Bryan - K7UDR


WIRES

"brainerdd" <dave@...>
 

Any chance of getting WIRES included? In our area, no one has a D-Star radio, but almost all have Yaesu's with WIRES.

Dave - WB6DHW
Kooskia, Idaho


Re: Critical Mass

"Jordan Hayes KG6UAE" <kg6uae@...>
 

My main question about these protocols is can they scale back
to to a 9600-56000 bps CDMA network?
I remember getting a LOT of work done using Telebit modems :-)

(for the children: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telebit )

/jordan KG6UAE


Re: Critical Mass

Matthew Pitts <daywalker_blade_2004@...>
 

John,

From what I've been reading on the hsmm-mesh forum, there probably isn't a significant difference between the default olsrd and the one that is a part of the hsmm-mesh firmware. My thoughts at this point would be to use the mesh as primary local transport and have the UDR56K as an interconnection backbone between areas. I am planning some experimentation with a local ham that is interested in hsmm-mesh and will keep the group informed about the potential uses.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU



Mesh Networking/Self Healing Networks

There have been several people who have talked  about putting HSMM into the UDR56K-4.  I can report that olsrd compiles on the radio's ARM processor but we have not been able to do any testing at this point. I also don't have experience with the HSMM implementation to know if there are incompatibilities with standard OLSR.  This is not a priority for initial release of the radio, however, it would be interesting to have someone in the community provide what differences there might be and possibly take up the port and support of HSMM to the radio.  I have also taken a look at B.A.T.M.A.N. My main question about these protocols is can they scale back to to a 9600-56000 bps CDMA network?  When a protocol assumes a high data rate transport, it just may be too "chatty" for a lower speed network.

Certainly some of these protocols could run on a WiFi dongle attached to the radio, or the radio could be part of the mix via Ethernet or other transport.  I think a self healing network makes a lot of sense, we just have to keep in mind there are always tradeoffs.  With the UDR56K-4 you are trading bandwidth and data rate for power and propagation advantages.  This permits a network to be built with lower density of stations.  The frequency of node beacons needs to be tempered by the speed and number of adjacent nodes -- so a mobile station can run further against a base station before it needs to switch base nodes, but conversely topology updates may be slower.   It may be necessary for inventive hams to build up a light weight protocol that can create a balance between speed and network intelligence. Time will tell, but first we need to get the radio out with stated functionality.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  







Re: Critical Mass

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

I've been terribly busy of late, but thought I would take a few moments to share some thoughts on the topics in this thread.

Critical Mass

It all depends on your application.  The UDR56K-4 is a "platform radio" that can take on many different personalities and tasks.

RMS Gateway - critical mass 1, or 2 if you want to go above 1200 or 9600 bps. It can talk to existing RMS gateways and stations over the air and provide Internet connectivity to the rest of the Winlink/RMS ecosystem.

D-STAR Voice Half-Duplex Gateway - critical mass 1.  The UDR56K-4 can support both a gateway and a RF module function in one package, attach power, antenna, and Internet.  This will connect user radios into the whole D-STAR network.

D-STAR Data Access Point - critical mass 2.  Since there isn't another DD unit that performs on 70cm and at the data rates as the UDR56K-4, at least 2 units are required for operation.

AMPRnet/Net-44 - critical mass 1.  TCP/IP over AX.25 is available at 1200/9600 bps and as high as 56 kbps.

Mesh Networking/Self Healing Networks

There have been several people who have talked  about putting HSMM into the UDR56K-4.  I can report that olsrd compiles on the radio's ARM processor but we have not been able to do any testing at this point. I also don't have experience with the HSMM implementation to know if there are incompatibilities with standard OLSR.  This is not a priority for initial release of the radio, however, it would be interesting to have someone in the community provide what differences there might be and possibly take up the port and support of HSMM to the radio.  I have also taken a look at B.A.T.M.A.N. My main question about these protocols is can they scale back to to a 9600-56000 bps CDMA network?  When a protocol assumes a high data rate transport, it just may be too "chatty" for a lower speed network.

Certainly some of these protocols could run on a WiFi dongle attached to the radio, or the radio could be part of the mix via Ethernet or other transport.  I think a self healing network makes a lot of sense, we just have to keep in mind there are always tradeoffs.  With the UDR56K-4 you are trading bandwidth and data rate for power and propagation advantages.  This permits a network to be built with lower density of stations.  The frequency of node beacons needs to be tempered by the speed and number of adjacent nodes -- so a mobile station can run further against a base station before it needs to switch base nodes, but conversely topology updates may be slower.   It may be necessary for inventive hams to build up a light weight protocol that can create a balance between speed and network intelligence. Time will tell, but first we need to get the radio out with stated functionality.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  





Re: Critical Mass

"John K Scoggin, Jr" <aat3bf@...>
 

I was referring to use on the amateur bands.  MARS, to the best of my knowledge, has never had access to wideband UHF channels.  We had some channels in the 406-420 MHz in the past, but I believe they were lost when DHS started screaming for more…

 

john

 

From: UniversalDigitalRadio@... [mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of brad_ka3yan
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 12:52 PM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: Critical Mass

 

 

Bryan,

I asked my state MARS director (Navy-MC MARS) about the use of this for our state and was told that Navy-MC MARS does not have any UHF frequencies. In other words, as an organization we cannot use this radio. It was a real bummer to hear since I think this would be a fabulous application for ECOM and statewide traffic routing.

Brad

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., Bryan Hoyer <bhhoyer@...> wrote:
>
> And another milepost on the road to critical mass.
>
> Just received this from Army MARS
>
> "My Winlink users are crying for something like this! Any news on availability?"
>
> Bryan
>