Date   
Re: Critical Mass

"qrv@..." <qrv@...>
 

Have you considered HSMM-Mesh in that mix?

I would purchase one or more units if there were others in my region
with which to communicate. ... I welcome the possibility
brought forth by the introduction of this new hardware. Is there
anyone in the South Puget Sound area that would like to collaborate
with me on this project?

Best regards,

Gary, K7EK
--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22

Re: Critical Mass

"gary.k7ek@..." <gary.k7ek@...>
 


I would purchase one or more units if there were others in my region with which to communicate. I operate several analog FM voice repeaters on VHF & UHF; They have IRLP & Echolink capability. I also have the last full service AX25 packet system in Western Washington (linux based),  APRS Igate, WL2K packet RMS, HF scanning WL2K pactor/winmor RMS, etc. All of these services are available to EMCOMM, Medical Services, WA EMD, etc. What would be good is to be able to integrate these systems with a common high speed backbone. There used to be a AX25 network of sorts in the 80's and maybe early 90's, but throughput was unacceptably slow, as it was fragmented and unstandardized, mostly due to turf wars, power plays, politics, lockouts, exclusionary measures, and hoarding of information, and other such stupidity.  Assuming that we have all grown up and are older and wiser since then, perhaps we can replace the former poor excuse for a network with something that works well,  for all to use and enjoy.  I for one will work with those that will work with me, despite any difference of personal opinion we may have with each other. I just ask to be treated fairly, as an equal stake holder, and with a little bit of  respect.  I welcome the possibility brought forth by the introduction of this new hardware. Is there anyone in the South Puget Sound area that would like to collaborate with me on this project?

Best regards,

Gary, K7EK

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

TAPR Announces DCC (Digital Communication Conference) Technical & Introductory Sessions Schedule, Banquet Speaker/Topic and Sunday Seminar Speaker/Topic

Mark Thompson <wb9qzb_groups@...>
 

 
 
TAPR Announces DCC (Digital Communication Conference)
Technical & Introductory Session Schedule,
Banquet Speaker/Topic and
Sunday Seminar Speaker/Topic
 
 
ARRL/TAPR DCC, Atlanta, September 21 - 23 
 
Sheraton Gateway Hotel Atlanta Airport
 1900 Sullivan Road
 Atlanta, GA 30337
 
 
Technical / Introductory Sessions Schedule
 
Technical Sessions
Friday - Saturday
 
Introductory Sessions
Saturday
 
 
Saturday Night Banquet Speaker & Topic
 
DCC Saturday Night Banquet Speaker
will be Bdale Garbee, KB0G
talking about the "Sharing the Joy of Making"
 
Sunday Morning Seminar Speaker & Topic
 
DCC Sunday Morning Seminar will be a hands-on tutorial
using Gnuradio  to design and implement software defined radios on your laptop
presented by Tom Rondeau, KB3UKZ, the leader of the Gnuradio project.
 
 




Re: Critical Mass

Bryan Hoyer <bhhoyer@...>
 

Hi Bob,

Yes you are right about critical mass in an area, but let's talk first about the application.

You mention it as a backup to repeaters, I don't see it that way at all. Repeaters handle voice,  the UDR56k is a data radio. All of my served agencies have a need for hard copy communication, both peer to peer and via winlink. They require this in addition to voice capabilities.

As far as value goes, the proposition is simple. Boost your email capabilities 8x for less than the price of a nice dual-bander. Throw in D-STAR for free at the same time. Build your own network at 56K+. Add APRS on 440...

As for critical mass and served agencies, We are currently in discussions with San Juan, Whatcom, Skagit and Snohomish Counties. I spent an hour on the phone yesterday with the gentleman who handles emcomm for all of Southern British Columbia. If there is any place in the world with critical mass Bothell WA is in it,

So how does it work in other areas?

Check out Gary from Amateur Radio Video News, where he says they could use a couple hundred of these in North Carolina.


But you're right it has to start with some minimal group. Here's a few examples.

Budd in Blaine buys one and we set up a 56k link between us. Blaine is LOS to me on San Juan Island.

My local Radio club has a digi-peater site for 1200 baud packet on 2m and 220. They buy one unit and we add 9600 on 440 to talk to the existing RMS gateway up in Vancouver BC. A few club members want to play as well. Our 5 emcomm stations look to upgrade when funding becomes available.

We have a club $5000 D-STAR repeater near Friday Harbor. We buy one $400 unit to act as a hot-spot in Roche Harbor on the North of the Island. And maybe one in Eastsound over on Orcas. And perhaps we should do something in Lopez Village.

So how many does it take to get started? 2 or 3 interested hams in a given area. When it deploys at a hospital near you, will you buy a unit to play too?

Cheers,
Bryan

On Aug 26, 2012, at 9:37 PM, Bob Helling wrote:

 

I like the idea of this product and will probably buy one just for my own experimental fun but it seems to me that this only becomes useful when you get a critical mass of people in the same geographical area that will buy and use them.

It looks like too much of a single purpose device as I see it now to get that critical mass.  I see it as a backup plan when repeaters aren't available in times of emergency.  I'm sure I'm missing some of the other uses but my question is pretty specific.  Assuming I am not able to convince an agency to buy these for all their volunteers, how do I convince my ham buddies that this is something that will be fun and/or useful in everyday use and worth spending as much as a nice dual band mobile rig.

There are a couple of ways to answer this.  First, how might we use these solely with each other.  Second how useful are these devices when interoperating with other ham devices.

Sorry if this has all been covered already.  If so, please point me to the relevant posts.
Thanks,
Bob Helling / K9PQ
Bothell, WA


Critical Mass

Bob Helling <bob.helling@...>
 

I like the idea of this product and will probably buy one just for my own experimental fun but it seems to me that this only becomes useful when you get a critical mass of people in the same geographical area that will buy and use them.

It looks like too much of a single purpose device as I see it now to get that critical mass.  I see it as a backup plan when repeaters aren't available in times of emergency.  I'm sure I'm missing some of the other uses but my question is pretty specific.  Assuming I am not able to convince an agency to buy these for all their volunteers, how do I convince my ham buddies that this is something that will be fun and/or useful in everyday use and worth spending as much as a nice dual band mobile rig.

There are a couple of ways to answer this.  First, how might we use these solely with each other.  Second how useful are these devices when interoperating with other ham devices.

Sorry if this has all been covered already.  If so, please point me to the relevant posts.
Thanks,
Bob Helling / K9PQ
Bothell, WA

Re: project

John Hays <john@...>
 

Yes. The engineering team is getting the product ready. More announcements will come as we get closer. The list is for sharing ideas and we try to answer questions as we receive them. 

--
John D. Hays
206-801-0820
Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 26, 2012, at 19:48, "Chris B" <brizey02@...> wrote:

 

This still alive?

Re: project

Glenn Wright <gw.ka8e@...>
 

Yes

On 08/27/2012 02:48 AM, Chris B wrote:
This still alive?



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


--
73 de Glenn

project

"Chris B" <brizey02@...>
 

This still alive?

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

Matthew Pitts <daywalker_blade_2004@...>
 

Tyrell,

The transcoding between AMBE and Codec2 has been done by Kristoff ON1ARF; his blog has some sound samples that I have listened to. I will admit that they may not be the neat sounding speech with multiple conversions, but it's still a lot clearer than analog signals from a fringe area into an analog repeater.

As an update, it appears that AMBE to AMBE should be fairly easy, especially between D-Star and NXDN; there appears to be only a difference of 50 Hertz in the sampling rates, and a similar difference in the error correction. I will have to research the difference between D-Star and DMR next.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU


Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



From: Tyrell Berry ;
To: Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap
Sent: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 2:00:31 PM

 

Again, I'm not an audio engineer, and I have been wrong before...  but isn't saying that the chip is a vocoder and it is not compression kind of like saying MP3 is a Muscoder and is also not compression? Is it somehow true that because someone chooses to use a different vocabulary that the principles of which I speak somehow cease to apply?

It has been said several times before, and I will agree: it's entirely possible that transcoding through back to back vocoders may produce legible audio...  Only one way to find out, and I look forward to hearing recordings of the results.  

On Aug 3, 2012 6:51 AM, "Bryan Hoyer" <bhhoyer@...> wrote:
 

The UDR56K has an expansion interface which is designed for an optional ambe vocoder (it is NOTcompression).

DVSI chips are TI DSPs that are factory programmed with their code. The interface is 2 SSPs or synchronous serial port which connect directly to the Marvell SOC.

The interface and drivers wil be documented.

Bryan

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Hi Tyrell,

Vocoders and other codecs are different beasts.  

Two short articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codec

In layman's terms, a codec converts an analog stream into a coding format.  Some coding formats are lossless and produce a true representation of the orignal analog stream in a digital format, but most such as MP4 and AAC, use compression to get a lower data rate.

A vocoder is considered a type of codec, in that it is converting "analog" voice to what is usually a very low data rate bitstream and back.  However, it's methodology is fundamentally different than traditional audio lossy and lossless codecs.  AMBE and CODEC2 both approach the problem by detecting and recognizing phonemes (the basic sounds that make up human speech) and such things as frequency slope, amplitude, and inflection in the analog stream.  The vocoder then represents the phonemes and modifiers as digital codes (e.g. 0x3E might represent the 'th' sound), which are transmitted digitally, where the receiving end uses those codes to synthesize the original speech.  This process is focused on human speech and has the side effect of mostly ignoring sounds that are not human speech.

The semantic is important to differentiate both the technique and result of the method of encoding and decoding speech.  If you transcoded an MP3 (lossy) music stream into AMBE or Codec2 the result would likely be unrecognizable.  

It may be that transcoding between two similar vocoders would exhibit less deterioration of a voice signal, since they would both be looking for the same attributes in the "audio" signal.  We won't really know until someone tries it in the real world.

Everything else on the "data" side of a complex DV radio protocol can probably be handled, in one form or another, though there would be mismatches.  For example, going from D-STAR to DMR, "callsign addresses" and unit identifiers could be mapped to one another.  On the other hand, there is no equivalent to D-STAR's ancillary data (e.g. comment text, D-PRS, etc.) in IRLP's network, though a SIP link could send it as a message in the control channel.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 7:00 AM, Tyrell Berry <kd7kuj@...> wrote:
 

Again, I'm not an audio engineer, and I have been wrong before...  but isn't saying that the chip is a vocoder and it is not compression kind of like saying MP3 is a Muscoder and is also not compression? Is it somehow true that because someone chooses to use a different vocabulary that the principles of which I speak somehow cease to apply?

It has been said several times before, and I will agree: it's entirely possible that transcoding through back to back vocoders may produce legible audio...  Only one way to find out, and I look forward to hearing recordings of the results.  

On Aug 3, 2012 6:51 AM, "Bryan Hoyer" <bhhoyer@...> wrote:
 

The UDR56K has an expansion interface which is designed for an optional ambe vocoder (it is NOTcompression).

DVSI chips are TI DSPs that are factory programmed with their code. The interface is 2 SSPs or synchronous serial port which connect directly to the Marvell SOC.

The interface and drivers wil be documented.

Bryan


Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

Tyrell Berry <kd7kuj@...>
 

Again, I'm not an audio engineer, and I have been wrong before...  but isn't saying that the chip is a vocoder and it is not compression kind of like saying MP3 is a Muscoder and is also not compression? Is it somehow true that because someone chooses to use a different vocabulary that the principles of which I speak somehow cease to apply?

It has been said several times before, and I will agree: it's entirely possible that transcoding through back to back vocoders may produce legible audio...  Only one way to find out, and I look forward to hearing recordings of the results.  

On Aug 3, 2012 6:51 AM, "Bryan Hoyer" <bhhoyer@...> wrote:
 

The UDR56K has an expansion interface which is designed for an optional ambe vocoder (it is NOTcompression).

DVSI chips are TI DSPs that are factory programmed with their code. The interface is 2 SSPs or synchronous serial port which connect directly to the Marvell SOC.

The interface and drivers wil be documented.

Bryan

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

Bryan Hoyer <bhhoyer@...>
 

The UDR56K has an expansion interface which is designed for an optional ambe vocoder (it is NOTcompression).

DVSI chips are TI DSPs that are factory programmed with their code. The interface is 2 SSPs or synchronous serial port which connect directly to the Marvell SOC.

The interface and drivers wil be documented.

Bryan

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

"Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
 

At 10:29 AM 8/3/2012, you wrote:


Depending on what the bit rate is for NXDN, there may only need to be a conversion to and from D-Star's bit rate; does anyone know that information off-hand? The nice thing is that we probably won't need more than one chip as long as there isn't a need to handle full-duplex digital voice.

For Reid: this is more of a brainstormimg session for a protocol conversion interface than a specific functionality request for the UDR56K. I know that there is some interest in bridging between the Hytera and Motorola DMR implementations, which I'm sure Tyrell can confirm; I see a need for similar bridging between other protocols, even if others don't.
Well, what could be useful here is an interface in the UDR56K that presents the raw digital audio data, so it can be processed by an external AMBE (or whatever) decoder, making an external transcoder easier to implement.

Just contributing in the brainstorming spirit.

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

"Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
 

At 08:52 AM 8/3/2012, you wrote:


Fair enough, I stand corrected. Even as I hit send, I more or less knew I was wrong and should have said simply "uncompressed audio". Still, every time you convert to a lossy format, audio data is lost, and we don't have much to work with from the get-go.
True, but in my experience, there is still a big difference between transcoding to PCM and going all the way to analog and back. With the latter, you add a D/A and A/D converter, you're relying on the antialiasing/reconstruction filters to be good, and the quality of the intervening audio stages (which can be suspect in 2 way radios).

You are right that there are still losses converting between the formats. Only one way to find out if it's too bad or not. ;)

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

Matthew Pitts <daywalker_blade_2004@...>
 

Depending on what the bit rate is for NXDN, there may only need to be a conversion to and from D-Star's bit rate; does anyone know that information off-hand? The nice thing is that we probably won't need more than one chip as long as there isn't a need to handle full-duplex digital voice.

For Reid: this is more of a brainstormimg session for a protocol conversion interface than a specific functionality request for the UDR56K. I know that there is some interest in bridging between the Hytera and Motorola DMR implementations, which I'm sure Tyrell can confirm; I see a need for similar bridging between other protocols, even if others don't.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU


Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



From: Tyrell Berry ;
To: ;
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap
Sent: Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:52:00 PM

 

Fair enough, I stand corrected.  Even as I hit send, I more or less knew I was wrong and should have said simply "uncompressed audio".  Still, every time you convert to a lossy format, audio data is lost, and we don't have much to work with from the get-go.

On Aug 2, 2012 3:22 PM, "Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...> wrote:
 

At 06:59 PM 8/2/2012, you wrote:
>___Original Message_________________________________________
>From: "Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 Time: 07:32:08
>
> >There is no analog audio near a DV Dongle (have you
> >ever managed to get an analog signal down a USB bus? ;) ).
>
> >
>
>Yup. I do it every day. On my TS-590S. Mostly analog data tones, but
>sometimes analog DV tones. Audio codec in the radio, codec driver in the
>PC. USB cable in between. Works very well.

But you are NOT passing analog audio down the USB cable. You're
passing digital PCM to a USB sound device built into the
radio. Semantics are important in this discussion, and my point
still stands, there are no analog signals around a DV Dongle, just an
AMBE coded bitstream and a PCM bitstream (plus commands to the dongle
and status/responses back).

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

Tyrell Berry <kd7kuj@...>
 

Fair enough, I stand corrected.  Even as I hit send, I more or less knew I was wrong and should have said simply "uncompressed audio".  Still, every time you convert to a lossy format, audio data is lost, and we don't have much to work with from the get-go.

On Aug 2, 2012 3:22 PM, "Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...> wrote:
 

At 06:59 PM 8/2/2012, you wrote:
>___Original Message_________________________________________
>From: "Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
>Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 Time: 07:32:08
>
> >There is no analog audio near a DV Dongle (have you
> >ever managed to get an analog signal down a USB bus? ;) ).
>
> >
>
>Yup. I do it every day. On my TS-590S. Mostly analog data tones, but
>sometimes analog DV tones. Audio codec in the radio, codec driver in the
>PC. USB cable in between. Works very well.

But you are NOT passing analog audio down the USB cable. You're
passing digital PCM to a USB sound device built into the
radio. Semantics are important in this discussion, and my point
still stands, there are no analog signals around a DV Dongle, just an
AMBE coded bitstream and a PCM bitstream (plus commands to the dongle
and status/responses back).

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

"Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
 

At 06:59 PM 8/2/2012, you wrote:
___Original Message_________________________________________
From: "Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 Time: 07:32:08

There is no analog audio near a DV Dongle (have you
ever managed to get an analog signal down a USB bus? ;) ).
>

Yup. I do it every day. On my TS-590S. Mostly analog data tones, but
sometimes analog DV tones. Audio codec in the radio, codec driver in the
PC. USB cable in between. Works very well.
But you are NOT passing analog audio down the USB cable. You're passing digital PCM to a USB sound device built into the radio. Semantics are important in this discussion, and my point still stands, there are no analog signals around a DV Dongle, just an AMBE coded bitstream and a PCM bitstream (plus commands to the dongle and status/responses back).

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

Matthew Pitts <daywalker_blade_2004@...>
 

Yes, there are several high end transceivers that have an integrated sound card specifically for use on the various HF digital modes.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



From: Tony Langdon, VK3JED ;
To: ;
Subject: RE: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap
Sent: Thu, Aug 2, 2012 10:56:09 AM

 

At 12:30 PM 8/2/2012, you wrote:

>Hmm. Not sure how they do it but the IC-7200 passes the audio over a
>USB connection in parallel with the CI-V commands.

Well, that one's easy, the audio is still in digital form, it's
rather like a serial dongle and a sound fob on the one USB hub. :)

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com

Re: AW: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

"siegfried jackstien" <siegfried.jackstien@...>
 

Usb soundcard?!?

Dg9bfc

Sigi

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
[mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] Im Auftrag von Howard Small
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 2. August 2012 02:30
An: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Betreff: RE: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: Bridging the digital voice and
data gap



Hmm. Not sure how they do it but the IC-7200 passes the audio over a USB
connection in parallel with the CI-V commands.



Howard

VK4BS



From: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
[mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of qrv@...
Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012 12:01
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: Bridging the digital voice and
data gap





This one tickled my fancy ...

Perhaps one could modulate the 5v line?

Just sayin' ... ;-)

Tony Langdon, VK3JED wrote: (have you ever managed to get an analog
signal down a USB bus? ;) ).
--

Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
David Colburn nevils-station.com
I don't google I SEARCH! duckduckgo.com
Network: groups.yahoo.com/group/qrv
Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22

Re: Bridging the digital voice and data gap

"Tony Langdon, VK3JED" <vk3jed@...>
 

At 12:30 PM 8/2/2012, you wrote:


Hmm. Not sure how they do it but the IC-7200 passes the audio over a USB connection in parallel with the CI-V commands.
Well, that one's easy, the audio is still in digital form, it's rather like a serial dongle and a sound fob on the one USB hub. :)

73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL
http://vkradio.com