Topics

Thumb dv audio breakup


Les Norton <gm4jnw@...>
 

Well what a day.
I rang my ISP today and they did a quality test and its poor.
Been like that a week now.
Then i find out that Fibre to cabinet was switched on last week, bit of a coincidence but was offered a good deal to switch over so have done it and hopefully there should be no issues after then download at the moment is today 2.1 and upload 0.25 which actually has gone down.
Not sure what upload will be when i get fibre but download is 80mbps 

Fingers crossed that will sort matters out.


On 6 Jan 2016, at 03:11, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:

I don't know the format of the incoming UDP packets that you receive from the different servers/reflectors, but if they have any kind of information contained within them such as a sequence number or originating time stamp then you could collate that info for the end user of your software and give it to them in say a graphical form or simple text form to let them know what the packet loss/delay/jitter is.

AMBE audio frames are 20ms each, so thats 100 packets a second you should be getting (on average), if you're getting less than that (on average) then that's one figure you could present to the user. You could also assign a fairly accurate timestamp to the incoming frames yourself to monitor the jitter level (change/difference in packet arrival time).

Any and all sources of information are often extremely useful in determining the source (in this case probably the internet) of these kinds of problems for the end user.

The user could also maybe do a tracert back to the server/reflector to maybe help determine a problematic node along the internet route ?



Les Norton <gm4jnw@...>
 

From my point of view as an end user that simply wants to use the software I only want a solution, my technical experience is small as far as computing is concerned although ok as far as electronics
Buster to me is a nice piece of software and simple from an end users point of view.
However i can confirm that i get the same issue on my windows laptop with windv so I’ve sort of ruled out software as being the issue.

From my previous posting you can see that there is packet loss

1) transmit 8 seconds, return 6.8 seconds
2) transmit 11.3 secs return 7.8 seconds
3) transmit 15.1 secs return 11.1 seconds

Thats the report on 3 transmissions to REF001E

Ping results were also posted earlier.

I have reported this to my ISP so we will see what they can do.

Incidentally I use on a daily basis a program on the mac called FaceTime which is like Skype and never have any break ups or drops, i speak to my sons daily, one in Australia and one in Thailand, i would have thought that transmission with such software would drop out too but as i say I’m not very tech savvy.


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

I don't know the format of the incoming UDP packets that you receive from the different servers/reflectors, but if they have any kind of information contained within them such as a sequence number or originating time stamp then you could collate that info for the end user of your software and give it to them in say a graphical form or simple text form to let them know what the packet loss/delay/jitter is.

AMBE audio frames are 20ms each, so thats 100 packets a second you should be getting (on average), if you're getting less than that (on average) then that's one figure you could present to the user. You could also assign a fairly accurate timestamp to the incoming frames yourself to monitor the jitter level (change/difference in packet arrival time).

Any and all sources of information are often extremely useful in determining the source (in this case probably the internet) of these kinds of problems for the end user.

The user could also maybe do a tracert back to the server/reflector to maybe help determine a problematic node along the internet route ?


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

The actual bandwidth requirement is not so much, but as Pericles points out, it's reliable, properly sequenced, and consistent (low jitter) delivery of UDP packets within that bandwidth.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Pericles Afaganis perilles@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

There are no guarantees with the internet.  When the pipe anywhere along the route overflows the packets are dropped. Good ISP’s have an excess of bandwidth to avoid most of the issues but smaller ones may not be able to afford the extra bandwidth.  QoS must be enabled over the entire path to be able to use that feature of the internet. It also comes at a cost much like a static IP.  Voice data is the hardest hit when packets are dropped as good voice recreation requires all the packets to be in sequence in a timely fashion to get good audio. 


--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


Pericles Afaganis <perilles@...>
 

There are no guarantees with the internet.  When the pipe anywhere along the route overflows the packets are dropped. Good ISP’s have an excess of bandwidth to avoid most of the issues but smaller ones may not be able to afford the extra bandwidth.  QoS must be enabled over the entire path to be able to use that feature of the internet. It also comes at a cost much like a static IP.  Voice data is the hardest hit when packets are dropped as good voice recreation requires all the packets to be in sequence in a timely fashion to get good audio. 


On Jan 5, 2016, at 2:01 PM, Jeremy McDermond mcdermj@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:


> On Jan 5, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Les Norton gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
> 
> not good then, the retailer is also doing tests.
> 
> i can’t see anyway of altering packet/audio buffering size in the software.

There isn’t a packet buffer at all in Buster. Every packet received is processed in the order they are received as they are received. With a UDP protocol, there’s not much use in buffering a whole lot.

There is a 16k audio buffer. At 8k samples per second and 2 bytes per sample, that’s around a second of audio buffering.

This is all pretty academic, though. He’s said there’s a problem with both WinDV and Buster that behaves the same. This would tend to indicate it’s not software.

> i am contacting my isp but they tend to have no interest, so long as you are getting emails etc.
> they don’t understand the needs of radio hams.
> if it can’t be sorted will have to return it under the retailers 7 day no quibble returns policy, which is a real shame.
> 
> i never had any problems with either the original dongle or the old blue dongle, thats what made me raise this.
> 
> 
>> On 5 Jan 2016, at 18:29, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
>> 
>> Just done another pingtest here in the UK .. ping 16ms, jitter 1ms
>> 
>> As John etc says, your problem looks certain to be your internet connection :(
>> 
> 
> 
> 

--
Jeremy McDermond (NH6Z)
Xenotropic Systems
mcdermj@...



Jeremy McDermond <mcdermj@...>
 

On Jan 5, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Les Norton gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:

not good then, the retailer is also doing tests.

i can’t see anyway of altering packet/audio buffering size in the software.
There isn’t a packet buffer at all in Buster. Every packet received is processed in the order they are received as they are received. With a UDP protocol, there’s not much use in buffering a whole lot.

There is a 16k audio buffer. At 8k samples per second and 2 bytes per sample, that’s around a second of audio buffering.

This is all pretty academic, though. He’s said there’s a problem with both WinDV and Buster that behaves the same. This would tend to indicate it’s not software.

i am contacting my isp but they tend to have no interest, so long as you are getting emails etc.
they don’t understand the needs of radio hams.
if it can’t be sorted will have to return it under the retailers 7 day no quibble returns policy, which is a real shame.

i never had any problems with either the original dongle or the old blue dongle, thats what made me raise this.


On 5 Jan 2016, at 18:29, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:

Just done another pingtest here in the UK .. ping 16ms, jitter 1ms

As John etc says, your problem looks certain to be your internet connection :(

--
Jeremy McDermond (NH6Z)
Xenotropic Systems
mcdermj@...


Les Norton <gm4jnw@...>
 

No unfortunately i sold the old dongles but once mac software was available i decided to buy another.

Sounds like its down to my isp, if it is ill keep the dongle as in the future am sure my broadband speed will go up.


On 5 Jan 2016, at 19:50, 'John D. Hays' john@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:


On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Les Norton gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

not good then, the retailer is also doing tests.

i can’t see anyway of altering  packet/audio buffering size in the software.
i am contacting my isp but they tend to have no interest, so long as you are getting emails etc.
they don’t understand the needs of radio hams.

This would affect any voip users as well.
 
if it can’t be sorted will have to return it under the retailers 7 day no quibble returns policy, which is a real shame.

i never had any problems with either the original dongle or the old blue dongle, thats what made me raise this.

Do you still have the old 'dongle' to test. It may a deterioration of your ISP circuit, or it may just be temporary.
  

-- 


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  




"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 


On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Les Norton gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

not good then, the retailer is also doing tests.

i can’t see anyway of altering  packet/audio buffering size in the software.
i am contacting my isp but they tend to have no interest, so long as you are getting emails etc.
they don’t understand the needs of radio hams.

This would affect any voip users as well.
 
if it can’t be sorted will have to return it under the retailers 7 day no quibble returns policy, which is a real shame.

i never had any problems with either the original dongle or the old blue dongle, thats what made me raise this.

Do you still have the old 'dongle' to test. It may a deterioration of your ISP circuit, or it may just be temporary.
  

--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


Les Norton <gm4jnw@...>
 

not good then, the retailer is also doing tests.
i can’t see anyway of altering  packet/audio buffering size in the software.
i am contacting my isp but they tend to have no interest, so long as you are getting emails etc.
they don’t understand the needs of radio hams.
if it can’t be sorted will have to return it under the retailers 7 day no quibble returns policy, which is a real shame.

i never had any problems with either the original dongle or the old blue dongle, thats what made me raise this.


On 5 Jan 2016, at 18:29, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:

Just done another pingtest here in the UK .. ping 16ms, jitter 1ms

As John etc says, your problem looks certain to be your internet connection :(



beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

Just done another pingtest here in the UK .. ping 16ms, jitter 1ms

As John etc says, your problem looks certain to be your internet connection :(


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

221ms sounds high.

According to pingtest we have 25ms ping, 20ms jitter (here in the UK).

If your getting no packet loss, then maybe try increasing the packet/audio buffering size (assuming the software has the option) to allow for the occassional longer delayed packets ?


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

I don't have a definitive answer, but in VOIP applications, 36ms of Jitter is considered high.

"Jitter - This is measured in milliseconds and is created by some instability in your connection. It is a fluctuation in the signal such that it becomes out of sync or displaced from where it should be in the transmission. It is effectively a continuous variation in the delay of packet delivery. VoIP jitter can be tolerated up to 20ms to 30 ms." -- http://www.whichvoip.com/voip/speed_test/ppspeed.html

Some applications in the VOIP telephony world implement a 'jitter buffer' to try to smooth jitter out a bit (at the cost of added delay).

Unfortunately, the best thing is to try to find a way (through your ISP?) to reduce the jitter number.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Les Norton gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

Just done a test as suggested:


Packet loss 0%
Ping 221ms
Jitter 36ms

What do you think?

On 5 Jan 2016, at 18:05, 'John D. Hays' john@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:


A tool everyone should get familiar with

http://www.pingtest.net/

Packet loss and jitter are your enemies.  These are things that can only be fixed on your network connection / ISP.

The connection between the computer and the ThumbDV or PiDV is simply a serial port that passes packets back and forth.  PCM (Audio) to AMBE or AMBE to PCM (Audio), everything else is up to the application (which in turn uses services from the operating system).

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Les Norton gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

I did some tests and here are the details:

here are 3 tests i did:

1) transmit 8 seconds, return  6.8 seconds
2) transmit 11.3 secs return 7.8 seconds
3) transmit 15.1 secs return 11.1 seconds

So you can see the reason for the dropped words on transmission

Also restarted the router in case it was an internet issue.
Have pretty slow internet speed 2.2mbps but it never caused issues with my previous dongle.

I agree could be packet loss - have also shared the info with the retailer



Or is it a matter of returning it?



-- 


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  






--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


Les Norton <gm4jnw@...>
 

Just done a test as suggested:

Packet loss 0%
Ping 221ms
Jitter 36ms

What do you think?

On 5 Jan 2016, at 18:05, 'John D. Hays' john@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:


A tool everyone should get familiar with

http://www.pingtest.net/

Packet loss and jitter are your enemies.  These are things that can only be fixed on your network connection / ISP.

The connection between the computer and the ThumbDV or PiDV is simply a serial port that passes packets back and forth.  PCM (Audio) to AMBE or AMBE to PCM (Audio), everything else is up to the application (which in turn uses services from the operating system).

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Les Norton gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

I did some tests and here are the details:

here are 3 tests i did:

1) transmit 8 seconds, return  6.8 seconds
2) transmit 11.3 secs return 7.8 seconds
3) transmit 15.1 secs return 11.1 seconds

So you can see the reason for the dropped words on transmission

Also restarted the router in case it was an internet issue.
Have pretty slow internet speed 2.2mbps but it never caused issues with my previous dongle.

I agree could be packet loss - have also shared the info with the retailer



Or is it a matter of returning it?



-- 


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  




"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

A tool everyone should get familiar with

http://www.pingtest.net/

Packet loss and jitter are your enemies.  These are things that can only be fixed on your network connection / ISP.

The connection between the computer and the ThumbDV or PiDV is simply a serial port that passes packets back and forth.  PCM (Audio) to AMBE or AMBE to PCM (Audio), everything else is up to the application (which in turn uses services from the operating system).

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:33 AM, Les Norton gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...m> wrote:
 

I did some tests and here are the details:

here are 3 tests i did:

1) transmit 8 seconds, return  6.8 seconds
2) transmit 11.3 secs return 7.8 seconds
3) transmit 15.1 secs return 11.1 seconds

So you can see the reason for the dropped words on transmission

Also restarted the router in case it was an internet issue.
Have pretty slow internet speed 2.2mbps but it never caused issues with my previous dongle.

I agree could be packet loss - have also shared the info with the retailer



Or is it a matter of returning it?



--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


Les Norton <gm4jnw@...>
 

I did some tests and here are the details:
here are 3 tests i did:

1) transmit 8 seconds, return  6.8 seconds
2) transmit 11.3 secs return 7.8 seconds
3) transmit 15.1 secs return 11.1 seconds

So you can see the reason for the dropped words on transmission

Also restarted the router in case it was an internet issue.
Have pretty slow internet speed 2.2mbps but it never caused issues with my previous dongle.

I agree could be packet loss - have also shared the info with the retailer


On 5 Jan 2016, at 16:05, Kelly Keeton kellykeeton@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:


What's your internet quality and uplink? Could just be simple packet loss

Sent from a mobile device. 

On Jan 5, 2016, at 6:44 AM, gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:

 

am at a loss

Got the dongle today and got it working with buster and win dv (one macbook pro and one windows 10 laptop)

Every one i spoke to complained of audio breakup - did adjustments on built in mike on both computers and even used a plantronics external mike but nothing helped. Audio in seem reasonably good.


Anyone else had this problem?


Or is it a matter of returning it?





Kelly Keeton <kellykeeton@...>
 

What's your internet quality and uplink? Could just be simple packet loss

Sent from a mobile device. 

On Jan 5, 2016, at 6:44 AM, gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...m> wrote:

 

am at a loss

Got the dongle today and got it working with buster and win dv (one macbook pro and one windows 10 laptop)

Every one i spoke to complained of audio breakup - did adjustments on built in mike on both computers and even used a plantronics external mike but nothing helped. Audio in seem reasonably good.


Anyone else had this problem?


Or is it a matter of returning it?


Les Norton <gm4jnw@...>
 

Have been doing testing and the problem seems to be packet losses.

Eg: when calling on REF001E 
3 calls one after the other.
1) transmit 8 seconds, return  6.8 seconds
2) transmit 11.3 secs return 7.8 seconds
3) transmit 15.1 secs return 11.1 seconds

So not sure what the fix is.



On 5 Jan 2016, at 14:44, gm4jnw@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:


am at a loss

Got the dongle today and got it working with buster and win dv (one macbook pro and one windows 10 laptop)

Every one i spoke to complained of audio breakup - did adjustments on built in mike on both computers and even used a plantronics external mike but nothing helped. Audio in seem reasonably good.


Anyone else had this problem?


Or is it a matter of returning it?




gm4jnw@...
 

am at a loss

Got the dongle today and got it working with buster and win dv (one macbook pro and one windows 10 laptop)

Every one i spoke to complained of audio breakup - did adjustments on built in mike on both computers and even used a plantronics external mike but nothing helped. Audio in seem reasonably good.


Anyone else had this problem?


Or is it a matter of returning it?