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locked D-STAR AT DAYTON HAMVENTION(R) 2018

 

The protocols are published, the latest revision is in Japanese, but it is published and has been for years.


On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 5:14 PM, Kenneth Hendrickson via Groups.Io <dsp_stap@...> wrote:

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 4/28/18, Woodrick, Ed <ewoodrick@...> wrote:
> D-STAR AT DAYTON HAMVENTION® 2018

Has anybody fully published *EVERYTHING* about the D-STAR protocols, including the physical layer?

To my knowledge, it has still not yet been published.

So it is still NOT open.  It is still NOT free.  It is still CLOSED AND PROPRIETARY.

That's not in the spirit of ham radio.

73,
Ken N8KH







--


John D. Hays
Edmonds, WA
K7VE

   

Kenneth Hendrickson
 

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/29/18, John D Hays - K7VE <@john_hays> wrote:
The protocols are
published, the latest revision is in Japanese, but it is
published and has been for years.
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/D-STAR.pdf
Nope.

Still *NOTHING* about the physical layer.
Therefore, NOT fully published.

Therefore, NOT open. NOT free (as in freedom).
Still CLOSED and PROPRIETARY.

Still NOT in the spirit of amateur radio.

73,
Ken N8KH

PS When there are "reverse engineering" attempts published on the Internet, you KNOW that it is not fully open. You don't have to reverse engineer an open protocol, because it is fully described in published documents. No such documents exist for D-STAR. Such reverse engineering attempts DO exist.

 

Ken, I don't know what you are talking about.  The physical layer is the radio circuit and applied modulation, on D-STAR that is GMSK.  


On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 5:30 PM, Kenneth Hendrickson via Groups.Io <dsp_stap@...> wrote:

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/29/18, John D Hays - K7VE <john@...> wrote:
> The protocols are
> published, the latest revision is in Japanese, but it is
> published and has been for years.
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/D-STAR.pdf

Nope.

Still *NOTHING* about the physical layer.
Therefore, NOT fully published.

Therefore, NOT open.  NOT free (as in freedom).
Still CLOSED and PROPRIETARY.

Still NOT in the spirit of amateur radio.

73,
Ken N8KH

PS  When there are "reverse engineering" attempts published on the Internet, you KNOW that it is not fully open.  You don't have to reverse engineer an open protocol, because it is fully described in published documents.  No such documents exist for D-STAR.  Such reverse engineering attempts DO exist.







--


John D. Hays
Edmonds, WA
K7VE

   

Kenneth Hendrickson
 

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/29/18, John D Hays - K7VE <@john_hays> wrote:
Ken, I
don't know what you are talking about.
You are still in denial.

The physical
layer is the radio circuit and applied modulation, on D-STAR
that is GMSK.
GMSK is a *family* of possible PHY layer implementations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum-shift_keying#Gaussian_minimum-shift_keying
What is T? Where is it specified?

It isn't specified anyplace.

NOT fully published.
Therefore, NOT open.  NOT free (as in freedom).
Still CLOSED and PROPRIETARY.
Still NOT in the spirit of amateur radio.

73,
Ken N8KH

 

I suspect he's thinking of the Gateway side of things, which is isn't documented.


Matthew Pitts

N8OHU


On 4/29/2018 8:42 PM, John D Hays - K7VE wrote:
Ken, I don't know what you are talking about.  The physical layer is the radio circuit and applied modulation, on D-STAR that is GMSK.  


On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 5:30 PM, Kenneth Hendrickson via Groups.Io <dsp_stap@...> wrote:

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/29/18, John D Hays - K7VE <john@...> wrote:
> The protocols are
> published, the latest revision is in Japanese, but it is
> published and has been for years.
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/D-STAR.pdf

Nope.

Still *NOTHING* about the physical layer.
Therefore, NOT fully published.

Therefore, NOT open.  NOT free (as in freedom).
Still CLOSED and PROPRIETARY.

Still NOT in the spirit of amateur radio.

73,
Ken N8KH

PS  When there are "reverse engineering" attempts published on the Internet, you KNOW that it is not fully open.  You don't have to reverse engineer an open protocol, because it is fully described in published documents.  No such documents exist for D-STAR.  Such reverse engineering attempts DO exist.







--


John D. Hays
Edmonds, WA
K7VE

   


Kenneth Hendrickson
 

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/29/18, Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io <daywalker_blade_2004=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
I suspect he's thinking of the Gateway side of
things, which is
isn't documented.
As long as there is *even one thing* not published, not documented, it isn't free (as in freedom), and it isn't open.

73,
Ken N8KH

 

There are open source implementations of the gateway. Ircddbgateway and qnetgateway, for example. 

Over 10 years ago a D-STAR radio was built and demoed based on available information. 

Anyway, this is probably a discussion for a D-STAR forum, father than a general discussion group for NW Digital Radio. 

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018, 17:59 Matthew Pitts via Groups.Io <daywalker_blade_2004=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I suspect he's thinking of the Gateway side of things, which is isn't documented.


Matthew Pitts

N8OHU


On 4/29/2018 8:42 PM, John D Hays - K7VE wrote:
Ken, I don't know what you are talking about.  The physical layer is the radio circuit and applied modulation, on D-STAR that is GMSK.  


On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 5:30 PM, Kenneth Hendrickson via Groups.Io <dsp_stap@...> wrote:

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/29/18, John D Hays - K7VE <john@...> wrote:
> The protocols are
> published, the latest revision is in Japanese, but it is
> published and has been for years.
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/D-STAR.pdf

Nope.

Still *NOTHING* about the physical layer.
Therefore, NOT fully published.

Therefore, NOT open.  NOT free (as in freedom).
Still CLOSED and PROPRIETARY.

Still NOT in the spirit of amateur radio.

73,
Ken N8KH

PS  When there are "reverse engineering" attempts published on the Internet, you KNOW that it is not fully open.  You don't have to reverse engineer an open protocol, because it is fully described in published documents.  No such documents exist for D-STAR.  Such reverse engineering attempts DO exist.







--


John D. Hays
Edmonds, WA
K7VE

   


Brad NK8J <bradnk8j@...>
 

On 4/29/2018 8:59 PM, Kenneth Hendrickson via Groups.Io wrote:
--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 4/29/18, John D Hays - K7VE <@john_hays> wrote:
Ken, I
don't know what you are talking about.
You are still in denial.

The physical
layer is the radio circuit and applied modulation, on D-STAR
that is GMSK.
GMSK is a *family* of possible PHY layer implementations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum-shift_keying#Gaussian_minimum-shift_keying
What is T? Where is it specified?

It isn't specified anyplace.

NOT fully published.
Therefore, NOT open.  NOT free (as in freedom).
Still CLOSED and PROPRIETARY.
Still NOT in the spirit of amateur radio.

73,
Ken N8KH

w6kd@...
 

I'm always amused when somebody comes in and, throwing around the nebulus "spirit of ham radio" as if they were appointed the High Priest of The Spirit by Hiram Percy Maxim himself, proposes to tell the rest of us how it is.

This sort of absolutism serves no useful purpose in the real world...certainly the thousands of us using many kinds of gear with all sorts of proprietary or patented ICs embedded (DSP chips, GPS modules, signal processors, etc) aren't particularly worried about what the Grinch of Ham Radio thinks or says.

Regards

Bob, W6KD

Tony <w7efs@...>
 

It appeared to me that someone had an AMBE "chip" on their shoulder, and it isn't you, Bob.

On 04/30/2018 10:19 AM, w6kd via Groups.Io wrote:
I'm always amused when somebody comes in and, throwing around the nebulus "spirit of ham radio" as if they were appointed the High Priest of The Spirit by Hiram Percy Maxim himself, proposes to tell the rest of us how it is.

This sort of absolutism serves no useful purpose in the real world...certainly the thousands of us using many kinds of gear with all sorts of proprietary or patented ICs embedded (DSP chips, GPS modules, signal processors, etc) aren't particularly worried about what the Grinch of Ham Radio thinks or says.

Regards

Bob, W6KD

Steve McGrane <temporarilyoffline@...>
 

Ultimately, somebody has to speak to the unpopular things. Sure, its
a lot of noise, but at the end of the day, the rules say something to
the effect of "no coded transmissions" and "no pecuniary interest".

I "get" what he's saying/trying to do and I appreciate that somebody
is carrying the torch.

How many of us have an iPad 1 that is just about completely useless
these days? Imagine if it was an open platform and you could load a
functional OS on it and keep on browsing the internet and playing
videos? (Without being labeled a criminal)

I have enough dead apple gear sitting on shelves that I won't buy
anymore of it, even if I have to pay extra to get something from
somebody else.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Tony <w7efs@...> wrote:
It appeared to me that someone had an AMBE "chip" on their shoulder, and it
isn't you, Bob.

On 04/30/2018 10:19 AM, w6kd via Groups.Io wrote:

I'm always amused when somebody comes in and, throwing around the nebulus
"spirit of ham radio" as if they were appointed the High Priest of The
Spirit by Hiram Percy Maxim himself, proposes to tell the rest of us how it
is.

This sort of absolutism serves no useful purpose in the real
world...certainly the thousands of us using many kinds of gear with all
sorts of proprietary or patented ICs embedded (DSP chips, GPS modules,
signal processors, etc) aren't particularly worried about what the Grinch of
Ham Radio thinks or says.

Regards

Bob, W6KD


 

People can carry their torch all they want -- the point is, NW Digital Radio is not the inventor of D-STAR or AMBE and this is just unwarranted noise here.  I don't want people to unsubscribe from this list, which is a communication vehicle for NW Digital Radio company and their users, for too much noise.

As pointed out, all sorts of proprietary technology is in every modern piece of equipment we use.  Remember, even FM and SSB were patented (proprietary technology).

If people want to continue this debate, please move it to an appropriate list.



On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Steve McGrane <temporarilyoffline@...> wrote:
Ultimately, somebody has to speak to the unpopular things.  Sure, its
a lot of noise, but at the end of the day, the rules say something to
the effect of "no coded transmissions" and "no pecuniary interest".

I "get" what he's saying/trying to do and I appreciate that somebody
is carrying the torch.

How many of us have an iPad 1 that is just about completely useless
these days?  Imagine if it was an open platform and you could load a
functional OS on it and keep on browsing the internet and playing
videos? (Without being labeled a criminal)

I have enough dead apple gear sitting on shelves that I won't buy
anymore of it, even if I have to pay extra to get something from
somebody else.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Tony <w7efs@...> wrote:
> It appeared to me that someone had an AMBE "chip" on their shoulder, and it
> isn't you, Bob.
>

--


John D. Hays
Director


hdk1220@...
 

Thank you

Harvey
Harvey Kolodner
WA3GTL

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 2:32 PM John D Hays - K7VE <john@...> wrote:
People can carry their torch all they want -- the point is, NW Digital Radio is not the inventor of D-STAR or AMBE and this is just unwarranted noise here.  I don't want people to unsubscribe from this list, which is a communication vehicle for NW Digital Radio company and their users, for too much noise.

As pointed out, all sorts of proprietary technology is in every modern piece of equipment we use.  Remember, even FM and SSB were patented (proprietary technology).

If people want to continue this debate, please move it to an appropriate list.



On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Steve McGrane <temporarilyoffline@...> wrote:
Ultimately, somebody has to speak to the unpopular things.  Sure, its
a lot of noise, but at the end of the day, the rules say something to
the effect of "no coded transmissions" and "no pecuniary interest".

I "get" what he's saying/trying to do and I appreciate that somebody
is carrying the torch.

How many of us have an iPad 1 that is just about completely useless
these days?  Imagine if it was an open platform and you could load a
functional OS on it and keep on browsing the internet and playing
videos? (Without being labeled a criminal)

I have enough dead apple gear sitting on shelves that I won't buy
anymore of it, even if I have to pay extra to get something from
somebody else.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Tony <w7efs@...> wrote:
> It appeared to me that someone had an AMBE "chip" on their shoulder, and it
> isn't you, Bob.
>

--


John D. Hays
Director