Topics

P25?

"hf_user" <zcopters@...>
 

Hi Bryan!


Any chance you will have a P25 repeater available? Timeframe?


Thanks,


Larry
WA7LZO

"k7udr" <bhhoyer@...>
 

Larry,

Repeater operation, the SHORT answer.

Repeaters require full-duplex operation. NW Digital Radio is planning on releasing a Full Duplex Radio sometime next year pending response of our initial product.

P25, DMR, NXDN The LONG answer.

The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software, limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface limitations like TDMA.

The initial release supports the two most popular digital implementations D-STAR and AX.25 but you have to understand that we didn't write the vast majority of the software, the Amateur Community did.

Let's start with packet which was developed by Hams in the 80s.

Linux has an AX.25 Stack which implements the layer 2 protocol, and the Radio chip supports the underlying HDLC synchronous packetization directly.

To operate with the winlink system we use Linux RMS for the gateway and Paclink Unix for the client side. We have added a web browser interface with open-source webmail so you don't need Airmail or any other dedicated program to send and receive emails over the system.

For APRS, which also depends on the AX25 stack, we are integrating APRX which performs the various functions including acting as an I-Gate. GPS units are available OTS with Linux drivers as well.

As for D-STAR, there is also a lot of open source available. We use the g4klx suite including his gateway and repeater controller, as well as Ircddb as the database.

So the question is not whether NW Digital Radio is going to support P25, DMR, NXDN etc. It's whether the Amateur community feels there is enough value to dedicate their resources to it. Once that happens they can certainly port to our open-source platform. and we're here to help.

Bryan

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "hf_user" <zcopters@...> wrote:

Hi Bryan!


Any chance you will have a P25 repeater available? Timeframe?


Thanks,


Larry
WA7LZO

Tyrell Berry <kd7kuj@...>
 


> The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software, limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface limitations like TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by DMR's TDMA? 

"David Lake (dlake)" <dlake@...>
 

That’s on the mobile side.

 

BS is constant carrier even for empty timeslots.

 

Format is TS1 – CACH – TS2 – CACH repeated.

 

From: UniversalDigitalRadio@... [mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Tyrell Berry
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:22 AM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?

 





> The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software, limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface limitations like TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by DMR's TDMA? 




"Chris B" <brizey02@...>
 

I was just thinking of 2 units to do P25 with!

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "David Lake (dlake)" <dlake@...> wrote:

That's on the mobile side.



BS is constant carrier even for empty timeslots.



Format is TS1 - CACH - TS2 - CACH repeated.



From: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
[mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Tyrell Berry
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:22 AM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?









The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software,
limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface
limitations like TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by
DMR's TDMA?

"William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...>
 

Not sure if any of you have seen this:

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Digital_Speech_Decoder_%28software_
package%29


Linux Based Decoder Software that supports:

• P25 Phase 1
• ProVoice EDACS Digital voice
• X2-TDMA - Motorola public safety TDMA system with P25 style signaling
(mostly based on DMR)
• DMR/MOTOTRBO - Digital Mobile Radio standard
• NXDN - 9600 baud (12.5 kHz) NEXEDGE and 4800 baud (6.25 kHz) NEXEDGE/IDAS
• C4FM modulation
• GFSK modulation (including GMSK and other filtered 2/4 level FSK)
• QPSK modulation (sometimes marketed as "LSM")

The following formats are currently under investigation or development:
• P25 Phase 2 - standard not finalized yet, vocoder is supported by mbelib
• OpenSky - four slot format vocoder may be supported by mbelib. Will not be
supportable if it is determined that voice encryption is not optional
• D-STAR - Voice frames recognized, vocoder not supported by mbelib. May be
possible to pass voice bits to DVDongle.
• Other formats will only be considered if high quality samples of the
signals are made available for download by the developers. Samples must be
from a discriminator tap, .wav format, 48000Hz, 16 bits per sample, mono.



From: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
[mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Chris B
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 3:21 PM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?

 
I was just thinking of 2 units to do P25 with!

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "David Lake (dlake)"
<dlake@...> wrote:

That's on the mobile side.



BS is constant carrier even for empty timeslots.



Format is TS1 - CACH - TS2 - CACH repeated.



From: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
[mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Tyrell Berry
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 11:22 AM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?









The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software,
limited only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface
limitations like TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by
DMR's TDMA?

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

I am familiar with the package -- NW Digital Radio would not be inclined to directly support it, due to the following:

Patent Issues with mbelib

While DSD was intended to be patent-free, mbelib describes functions that may be covered by one or more U.S. patents owned by DVSI Inc. The source code itself should not be infringing as it merely describes possible methods of implementation. Compiling or using mbelib may infringe on patents rights and/or require licensing. It is unknown if DVSI will sell licenses for software that uses mbelib. If you do not have a license and are in a jurisdiction protected by the DVSI patents you should not compile or use this source code. 


-- from the project site.


If the mbelib is not used, the rest of the code might be worth study by a developer.   P25 Phase 2 does use an AMBE chip (newer than the one D-STAR uses --  We are studying using the newest 3000 series chip in our daughter card).  Phase 1 uses the incompatible IMBE vocoder.



John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 5:13 PM, William Stillwell - KI4SWY <wkstill@...> wrote:
 

Not sure if any of you have seen this:

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Digital_Speech_Decoder_%28software_
package%29

Linux Based Decoder Software that supports:

• P25 Phase 1
• ProVoice EDACS Digital voice
• X2-TDMA - Motorola public safety TDMA system with P25 style signaling
(mostly based on DMR)
• DMR/MOTOTRBO - Digital Mobile Radio standard
• NXDN - 9600 baud (12.5 kHz) NEXEDGE and 4800 baud (6.25 kHz) NEXEDGE/IDAS
• C4FM modulation
• GFSK modulation (including GMSK and other filtered 2/4 level FSK)
• QPSK modulation (sometimes marketed as "LSM")

The following formats are currently under investigation or development:
• P25 Phase 2 - standard not finalized yet, vocoder is supported by mbelib
• OpenSky - four slot format vocoder may be supported by mbelib. Will not be
supportable if it is determined that voice encryption is not optional
• D-STAR - Voice frames recognized, vocoder not supported by mbelib. May be
possible to pass voice bits to DVDongle.
• Other formats will only be considered if high quality samples of the
signals are made available for download by the developers. Samples must be
from a discriminator tap, .wav format, 48000Hz, 16 bits per sample, mono.

"William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...>
 

But you said you would be using the AMBE Vocoder 3000? Which would not require the use of mbelib at all.

"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Considering 3000, yes.  

P25 - IMBE
P25 Phase 2 - AMBE

I don't think the 3000 does IMBE.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:13 PM, William Stillwell - KI4SWY <wkstill@...> wrote:
 

But you said you would be using the AMBE Vocoder 3000? Which would not require the use of mbelib at all.


Tyrell Berry <kd7kuj@...>
 

But...  No transmit... 

I have seen it before, and its cool...  For unlicensed folk who like to listen to police scanners.  But I want to talk...  and for that, I need the other half of the code.

And I'm not smart enough to write it myself :/

On Jun 5, 2012 6:00 PM, "William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...> wrote:
 

Not sure if any of you have seen this:

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Digital_Speech_Decoder_%28software_
package%29

Linux Based Decoder Software that supports:

• P25 Phase 1

"William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...>
 

Well, if you don’t know how to “generate” data stream, decoding it is the first hurdle.

 

Ie, when “dstar” first came into light, ICOM didn’t freely publish the TCP/IP stack, it had to be “deciphered” and applications where written, application were used, to “gather the data” on how it worked.

 

DSD would be a great tool for understanding how the over the air protocol works for different modes, then one can work on building a transmit stream.

 

Before everyone was using GMSK modem chips for their “nodes”, but now people are using sound cards, and dsp chips doing it all in software.

 

You want to transmit P25? NXDN? DSTAR? And you want to do it now? Sorry to say, check out ebay.

 

I own 3 Dstar Radios (down from 5 and a repeater), and 2 NXDN radios and an NXDN repeater.

 

The cost of NXDN is way less then D-Star which is the sad part.

 

MTRTRBO is also looking very good price wise as well, (considering a “new” icom D-star Repeater w/Gateway server cost you 4K + (pc’s are not free, neither is the official icom gw software) if doing all “ICOM” labeled. MOTOTRBO Repeaters are around 2K ? I am not sure if it comes with the IP Option. Or how much more on top of the 2K.

 

There are a LOT of licensed operators who run scanners in their cars, and shacks, there great tools.

 

William Stillwell – Ki4SwY

ICOM NXDN Repeater – 442.7625 RAN 1

IRLP Node # 8549 (offline)

New Port Richey, FL

 

 

From: UniversalDigitalRadio@... [mailto:UniversalDigitalRadio@...] On Behalf Of Tyrell Berry
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 1:52 AM
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Subject: RE: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?

 

 

But...  No transmit... 

I have seen it before, and its cool...  For unlicensed folk who like to listen to police scanners.  But I want to talk...  and for that, I need the other half of the code.

And I'm not smart enough to write it myself :/

On Jun 5, 2012 6:00 PM, "William Stillwell - KI4SWY" <wkstill@...> wrote:

 

Not sure if any of you have seen this:

http://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Digital_Speech_Decoder_%28software_
package%29

Linux Based Decoder Software that supports:

• P25 Phase 1

"k7udr" <bhhoyer@...>
 

I haven't verified it, but it should be possible.

Bryan

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., Tyrell Berry <kd7kuj@...> wrote:

The UDR56K has the ability to support many protocols in software, limited
only by modulation type, data rate and other ait interface limitations like
TDMA.

Is it capable of the 1.5 msec full tx power up/power down required by DMR's
TDMA?

"hf_user" <zcopters@...>
 

Keep in mind that P25 II TDMA is only capable of network repeater operation (read that "trunked"). Simplex is not supported on Phase II, as there is no way to accomplish the sync requirement for 2 subscriber sets in direct simplex mode, thus infrastructure is required.

Larry
WA7LZO

--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "John D. Hays" <john@...> wrote:

Considering 3000, yes.

P25 - IMBE
P25 Phase 2 - AMBE

I don't think the 3000 does IMBE.

------------------------------
John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
<http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
<http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>



On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:13 PM, William Stillwell - KI4SWY <
wkstill@...> wrote:

**


But you said you would be using the AMBE Vocoder 3000? Which would not
require the use of mbelib at all.


n9rhg@...
 

Seeing that P25 Phase 2 is almost the same as DMR, how do they do it?! Phase 2 will do the same as DMR, use time slot 1 only on simplex. It will work, just only one time slot - one user at a time.


Darren N9RHG


From: "hf_user" To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2012 8:29:29 AM
Subject: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?

 

Keep in mind that P25 II TDMA is only capable of network repeater operation (read that "trunked"). Simplex is not supported on Phase II, as there is no way to accomplish the sync requirement for 2 subscriber sets in direct simplex mode, thus infrastructure is required.

Larry
WA7LZO


--- In UniversalDigitalRadio@..., "John D. Hays" wrote:
>
> Considering 3000, yes.
>
> P25 - IMBE
> P25 Phase 2 - AMBE
>
> I don't think the 3000 does IMBE.
>
> ------------------------------
> John D. Hays
> K7VE
> PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223
> <http://k7ve.org/blog> <http://twitter.com/#!/john_hays>
> <http://www.facebook.com/john.d.hays>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:13 PM, William Stillwell - KI4SWY <
> wkstill@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > But you said you would be using the AMBE Vocoder 3000? Which would not
> > require the use of mbelib at all.
> >
> >
> >
>

n9rhg@...
 

The 3000 does support P25 P1 and P2, and DMR per there web site. The 3003 will also support the dPMR (the protocol that the new Yaesu radio is using) AMBE+2 and beond are said to be backwards compatable to IMBE.


Darren N9RHG


From: "John D. Hays"
To: UniversalDigitalRadio@...
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2012 8:20:41 PM
Subject: Re: [UniversalDigitalRadio] Re: P25?

 

Considering 3000, yes.  


P25 - IMBE
P25 Phase 2 - AMBE

I don't think the 3000 does IMBE.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 8:13 PM, William Stillwell - KI4SWY <wkstill@...> wrote:
 

But you said you would be using the AMBE Vocoder 3000? Which would not require the use of mbelib at all.


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Here is the manual for the AMBE 3000 (the 3003 is the same but with three vocoder paths) -- http://www.dvsinc.com/manuals/AMBE-3000_manual.pdf

On page 84 see the footnotes.  

The marketing literature does claim IMBE compatibility http://www.dvsinc.com/products/usb_3k.htm  --  I don't find IMBE mentioned at all in the manual.

If it does support IMBE, that would be a bonus and a developer would be able to incorporate it as part of their stack.


John D. Hays
K7VE
PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  



On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 11:53 AM, <n9rhg@...> wrote:
 

The 3000 does support P25 P1 and P2, and DMR per there web site. The 3003 will also support the dPMR (the protocol that the new Yaesu radio is using) AMBE+2 and beond are said to be backwards compatable to IMBE.


Darren N9RHG