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Yaesu AMBE chip


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

Hello

Does anyone out there know exactly which AMBE chip is used in the Yaesu Fusion radios ?


I'm assuming it's one of the AMBE-3000 chips, but would like to know for sure if possible.


Thanks



"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Cath,

I don't know the chip (they may have done a software license deal). however it is AMBE+2 HR and FR ... the AMBE-3000 chips support this HR and it is index number 33 on page 83 at http://www.dvsinc.com/manuals/AMBE-3000R_manual.pdf  FR should be index number 59 

Based on the Fusion Specification document.



On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 12:32 PM, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

Hello

Does anyone out there know exactly which AMBE chip is used in the Yaesu Fusion radios ?


I'm assuming it's one of the AMBE-3000 chips, but would like to know for sure if possible.


Thanks





--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

Hello John

Thank you for your reply :)

Yes 33 is the one I see it as being as well John.

Well, their are 3 different rates Yaesu use ..

 3600 .. 2450 voice .. 1150 fec .. V/D mode 1 .. index 33
 2450 .. 2450 voice ..      0 fec ...V/D mode 2 .. index 34
 7200 .. 4400 voice .. 2800 fec ..  FR mode ......index 59
    all AMBE+2

The index rate numbers are the only ones I can see them as being.
Am hoping it's the standard AMBE-3000R chip they use, especially as they have freely
published the protocol specifications they use (unlike DSTAR).

I am decoding and extracting all the data from the raw C4FM fusion frames that I currently have at hand, can decode/decompress the Fusion 2450 V/D type 2 mode voice using the software mbelib just fine, but am having trouble getting the AMBE-3000R chip to decode the channel bits back into audio samples. The chip gives me the audio samples back OK, just not in any kind of human speech language known to me lol.

If use the AMBE chip (the ThumbDV) to encode/compress speech, it then decodes it as expected. So all's fine there (using any rate setting).

I'll keep at it though until I find out exactly whats going on.


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Hi Cath,

I have not seen documentation on V/D mode 2.  Perhaps I missed it somewhere.

I am aware that it's important that you pace the packet stream to/from the AMBE3000 chip by waiting for the AMBE packet when sending in the PCM packet and vice versa.



On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:02 PM, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

Hello John

Thank you for your reply :)

Yes 33 is the one I see it as being as well John.

Well, their are 3 different rates Yaesu use ..

 3600 .. 2450 voice .. 1150 fec .. V/D mode 1 .. index 33
 2450 .. 2450 voice ..      0 fec ...V/D mode 2 .. index 34
 7200 .. 4400 voice .. 2800 fec ..  FR mode ......index 59
    all AMBE+2

The index rate numbers are the only ones I can see them as being.
Am hoping it's the standard AMBE-3000R chip they use, especially as they have freely
published the protocol specifications they use (unlike DSTAR).

I am decoding and extracting all the data from the raw C4FM fusion frames that I currently have at hand, can decode/decompress the Fusion 2450 V/D type 2 mode voice using the software mbelib just fine, but am having trouble getting the AMBE-3000R chip to decode the channel bits back into audio samples. The chip gives me the audio samples back OK, just not in any kind of human speech language known to me lol.

If use the AMBE chip (the ThumbDV) to encode/compress speech, it then decodes it as expected. So all's fine there (using any rate setting).

I'll keep at it though until I find out exactly whats going on.




--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 


Hi John

The yaesu document the one I'm using is this one (includes the V/D tyoe 2 mode) ..

https://www.yaesu.com/downloadFile.cfm?FileID=8237&FileCatID=263&FileName=Yaesu_Amateur%20Radio%20Digital%20Specs_1V01_EN-GB.pdf&FileContentType=application%2Fpdf

Yes EVERY time I send a packet to the AMBE chip (ANY packet type), I wait for the proper reply, If there is no reply (or a wrong/unexpected one) I stop there and then because it just means an error has occured.
The reply it comes back with to sending it the channel bits (the encoded audio bits extracted from C4FM packets) is the audio PCM samples, and visa versa.

I have noticed a couple of errors (one very bad one) in DVSI's AMBE-3000 PDF file(s), which did throw me for a few minutes.


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 


What I'm hoping, is that Yaesu aren't using the AMBE-3000F-P25 or AMBE-3000F-SAT chips. If they are, then that would explain a couple of things.

Those two other variants of the AMBE-3000 chip both provide two different variants on the exact same channel bit rates (2450 and 7200) that Yaesu Fusion use (V/D type 2 and Voice FR).

I can't yet test Fusion V/D type 1 mode with the ThumbDV as I don't have any uncompressed recorded WAV files containing the raw C4FM. And our local Fusion repeater won't be installed and working till close to christmas time.


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 10:10 AM, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 


What I'm hoping, is that Yaesu aren't using the AMBE-3000F-P25 or AMBE-3000F-SAT chips. If they are, then that would explain a couple of things.

Those two other variants of the AMBE-3000 chip both provide two different variants on the exact same channel bit rates (2450 and 7200) that Yaesu Fusion use (V/D type 2 and Voice FR).

I can't yet test Fusion V/D type 1 mode with the ThumbDV as I don't have any uncompressed recorded WAV files containing the raw C4FM. And our local Fusion repeater won't be installed and working till close to christmas time.




--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

None of the those WAV recordings seem to exists anymore John :(

Either that or the dropbox site is blocked by my ISP.


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Cath,

I have put some capture files in the Files -> DR-1X section of this group for you to use as samples.


On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 10:10 AM, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 


What I'm hoping, is that Yaesu aren't using the AMBE-3000F-P25 or AMBE-3000F-SAT chips. If they are, then that would explain a couple of things.

Those two other variants of the AMBE-3000 chip both provide two different variants on the exact same channel bit rates (2450 and 7200) that Yaesu Fusion use (V/D type 2 and Voice FR).

I can't yet test Fusion V/D type 1 mode with the ThumbDV as I don't have any uncompressed recorded WAV files containing the raw C4FM. And our local Fusion repeater won't be installed and working till close to christmas time.




--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

ah !

Thank you John. Fresh samples !

The DN file is V/D type 2.
I've just looked at the DR-1X manual and see that Yaesu don't give you the option to specify which of the two HR modes (V/D type 1 or V/D type 2) it uses, which is a shame.

I can decode the DN voice OK by feeding the extracted voice channel bits to the software mbelib AMBE decoder, but when I feed them to the hardware AMBE-3000 chip it doesn't decode it correctly still (comes back garbled).

So, either Yaesu are using a none standard AMBE-3000 chip, or I've still got something wrong, or they have chosen not to document a required step before sending the voice channel bits to the AMBE-3000 chip.

Considering that encrypted/hidden voice or data transfers are forbidden on the ham bands, I'm surprised the radio manufactures are getting away with not making every protocol detail freely availabe (such as what happened with ICOM/DSTAR).

Anyway, I shall keep at it, because I can't yet rule out that I'm forgetting something or have got something slightly wrong.

For Fusion V/D mode type 2 (a HR mode), I'm setting the AMBE-3000 chip to a custom rate using the these parameters listed in the chip data sheet ..

Total rate    Speech rate   FEC rate   RCW0    RCW1    RCW2    RCW3    RCW4    RCW5
   2450           2450             0           0x0431   0x0754   0x0000   0x0000   0x0000   0x7031

And for Fusion FR mode I'm using ..

Total rate    Speech rate   FEC rate   RCW0    RCW1    RCW2    RCW3    RCW4    RCW5
   7200           4400           2800        0x0458   0x0986   0x8020   0x0000   0x0000   0x7390


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

Cath,

My reading of the Yaesu spec is that type 2 adds some FEC bits, external to the AMBE+2 vocoder.  My suspicion is that they are applying those addition FEC bits to the AMBE sample but having the AMBE-3000 chip only handle the 'standard' HR packet.  I'll look into it further.

Also are you using the RATET commands to set the register values or individually setting them using RATEP? (Page 64 of the 3000F manual)


On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 12:46 AM, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

ah !

Thank you John. Fresh samples !

The DN file is V/D type 2.
I've just looked at the DR-1X manual and see that Yaesu don't give you the option to specify which of the two HR modes (V/D type 1 or V/D type 2) it uses, which is a shame.

I can decode the DN voice OK by feeding the extracted voice channel bits to the software mbelib AMBE decoder, but when I feed them to the hardware AMBE-3000 chip it doesn't decode it correctly still (comes back garbled).

So, either Yaesu are using a none standard AMBE-3000 chip, or I've still got something wrong, or they have chosen not to document a required step before sending the voice channel bits to the AMBE-3000 chip.

Considering that encrypted/hidden voice or data transfers are forbidden on the ham bands, I'm surprised the radio manufactures are getting away with not making every protocol detail freely availabe (such as what happened with ICOM/DSTAR).

Anyway, I shall keep at it, because I can't yet rule out that I'm forgetting something or have got something slightly wrong.

For Fusion V/D mode type 2 (a HR mode), I'm setting the AMBE-3000 chip to a custom rate using the these parameters listed in the chip data sheet ..

Total rate    Speech rate   FEC rate   RCW0    RCW1    RCW2    RCW3    RCW4    RCW5
   2450           2450             0           0x0431   0x0754   0x0000   0x0000   0x0000   0x7031

And for Fusion FR mode I'm using ..

Total rate    Speech rate   FEC rate   RCW0    RCW1    RCW2    RCW3    RCW4    RCW5
   7200           4400           2800        0x0458   0x0986   0x8020   0x0000   0x0000   0x7390




--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


K6ST Barry Bettman <k6st@...>
 

Looks like there is a lot of technical discussion about the AMBE chip on this yahoogroup. .  Any plans for access on DMR yet on the NWdigital DVthumb?  Thanks.


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 


Hi John

Yes I've done all the de-interleaving, de-whiteing and fec in the decoder which produces the original 49 bits ready to be decoded (V/D type 2 mode). All that works ok.
I've uloaded the decoded voice from your file into the same folder in the files section.

I've tried using the RATET with index and RATEP with the 6 code words, both with the same result (garbled audio).


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

You may want to communicate with some of the folks on this thread --

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/YaesuSystemFusion/conversations/topics/10042

On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 10:23 AM, John D. Hays <john@...> wrote:
Cath,

My reading of the Yaesu spec is that type 2 adds some FEC bits, external to the AMBE+2 vocoder.  My suspicion is that they are applying those addition FEC bits to the AMBE sample but having the AMBE-3000 chip only handle the 'standard' HR packet.  I'll look into it further.

Also are you using the RATET commands to set the register values or individually setting them using RATEP? (Page 64 of the 3000F manual)


On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 12:46 AM, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

ah !

Thank you John. Fresh samples !

The DN file is V/D type 2.
I've just looked at the DR-1X manual and see that Yaesu don't give you the option to specify which of the two HR modes (V/D type 1 or V/D type 2) it uses, which is a shame.

I can decode the DN voice OK by feeding the extracted voice channel bits to the software mbelib AMBE decoder, but when I feed them to the hardware AMBE-3000 chip it doesn't decode it correctly still (comes back garbled).

So, either Yaesu are using a none standard AMBE-3000 chip, or I've still got something wrong, or they have chosen not to document a required step before sending the voice channel bits to the AMBE-3000 chip.

Considering that encrypted/hidden voice or data transfers are forbidden on the ham bands, I'm surprised the radio manufactures are getting away with not making every protocol detail freely availabe (such as what happened with ICOM/DSTAR).

Anyway, I shall keep at it, because I can't yet rule out that I'm forgetting something or have got something slightly wrong.

For Fusion V/D mode type 2 (a HR mode), I'm setting the AMBE-3000 chip to a custom rate using the these parameters listed in the chip data sheet ..

Total rate    Speech rate   FEC rate   RCW0    RCW1    RCW2    RCW3    RCW4    RCW5
   2450           2450             0           0x0431   0x0754   0x0000   0x0000   0x0000   0x7031

And for Fusion FR mode I'm using ..

Total rate    Speech rate   FEC rate   RCW0    RCW1    RCW2    RCW3    RCW4    RCW5
   7200           4400           2800        0x0458   0x0986   0x8020   0x0000   0x0000   0x7390




--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  




--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223 
  


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

oh right.

Have requested to join the group John. Thank you !


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

After studying and comparing the decoded bit streams from C4FM recordings and the bit stream from the AMBE-3000 chip it's becoming clear that Yaesu are doing some extra undocumented bit swapping/bit interleaving to the codec channel bits from the AMBE chip before inserting them into their C4FM frames.

grrrrrrrr


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

John, before I admit defeat, I was wondering if you could possibly and kindly do another C4FM recording for me (disc tap) ?

If so, and if/when your able too, could you do the C4FM recording in V/D mode (not FR mode) sending say a continuous second each of DTMF tones (not voice). IF Yaesu send these tones by using the DTMF option on the AMBE chip, then it may well show me what bit-interleaving/swapping is going on.

Anyway, no problem if you can't, don't worry :)


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 


beaupeppybrandypip@...
 

hmmmmm, no sure how to link to a picture I've uploaded to the groups file section. Or even how to attach a picture to a mesage.


"John D. Hays" <john@...>
 

People can see your image by visiting https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/UniversalDigitalRadio/files

Nice work, BTW.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 7:50 AM, beaupeppybrandypip@... [UniversalDigitalRadio] <UniversalDigitalRadio@...> wrote:
 

hmmmmm, no sure how to link to a picture I've uploaded to the groups file section. Or even how to attach a picture to a mesage.




--


John D. Hays
K7VE

PO Box 1223, Edmonds, WA 98020-1223