Status: IC-7000 Audio Levels for V/UHF and HF modes #draws #hfmodes #ic7000
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Basil and All,
Tried to take a scientific/stepwise approach with setting the DRAWS board audio out today.
I went through the entire level and deviation check routine again today and wound up with very similar settings to my previous attempts. I then tested direwolf VHF-FM first and then after disabling AX25, fldigi and wsjt-x on HF. Results “ain’t purty”, but at least everything is being consistent.
Software function status: VHF - with direwolf/Xastir transmitting and receiving on the local packet network does work . Comment: I don't really have a an easy/better way to test than function on APRS network locally. I have a sense that the audio may be high, but I won’t know until I have time to putter with Spectrum Lab. It will become my "Deviation Meter" with an IC-7100 functioning as my "sensor".
UHF - have not tried anything yet. TBD
HF - With the alsamixer settings below (visually they produce the "lowest splatter" per an IC-7300 panscope and using Spectrum Lab 2 with the IC-7300 internal audio subsystem via USB. Rig coax is grounded, RF gain at 20% with 20dB of attenuation:
1. Fldigi drives the IC-7000 up to full power (if set) but transmits a very dirty sig at any power above 5%. Comment: The sig can be copied by others, but the ALC bar is reading 60%. Not making any friends in the PSK world. These are ALC symptoms. Reducing either the PCM level or LO Driver Gain results in very much increased noise and a feedback like whistle at a different freq. Increasing the two settings results in more splatter and harmonics.
2. WSJT-x receives just fine but DRAWS produces only an extremely low transmit audio level according to the IC-7000 and signal being received on other transceivers. Only testing with FT8 no other JT modes tested. TBD: wspr. Comment: In transmit there is no Power Out deflection on the IC-7000 - even if I adjust the PCM and IO Driver levels to the max, together or separate. So the PCM/LO Driver Gain level settings that “work” in fldigi, don’t work in wsjt-x. I even went back to check that invoking wsjt-x did not somehow tweak the alsamixer settings… they remained the same.
Key Question: Why is DRAWS overdriving in fldigi, and then not putting out enough audio level to drive the IC-7000 to set power level in wjst-x FT8 mode with alsamixer settings remaining the same between apps?
Here are my current alsamixer settings: PCM L:[-21.50dB], R:[-21.50dB ADC Level L:[-2.00dB], R:[-2.00dB] LO Driver Gain L:[6.00dB], R:[6.00dB] IN1 L:[10kOhm], R:[10kOhm] IN2 L:[Off], R:[Off]
I am stuck until I can figure out how to coerce wsjt-x into transmitting at set power with the same audio input levels to the rig as provided in fldigi. At this point I don’t even care if the overdrive issue isn’t solved. I have decided to put the FT-817 aside because other are working/reporting on it. I am only testing with the Beta 5 provided software and the IC-7000 until I get these critical pieces working reliably because that will be my main radio for this DRAWS kit.
Now need to go pay attention to other stuff (like family and the local zoo of 4-legged furries we keep here on the farm).
Thanks for thinking this through with me… KD4IZ Jack Spitznagel FM19oo
-- J Spitznagel Science River LLC KD4IZ
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First of all, thanks for all the time you are putting in.
See suggestion for PCM, LO Drive gain below. Tried to take a scientific/stepwise approach with setting the DRAWS boardCheck this out by John Ackermann N8UR Look for: "The No-Test-Equipment Packet Adjustment System" https://www.febo.com/packet/layer-one/transmit.html Do you have a handy talky? use the measure_deviate script: n7nix/deviation/measure_deviate.sh Pick a tone, bring-up alsamixer Set PCM to 0db & drop LO Drive until there is no clipping ie. no distortion or just follow John Ackermann's suggestion. UHF - have not tried anything yet. TBDI don't have an answer but your description is a good data point. Here are my current alsamixer settings:So PCM set that low is very suspicious. It means you are not using many bits of the CODEC. I would play with returning PCM at least close to zero & dropping LO Driver Gain down. I am stuck until I can figure out how to coerce wsjt-x into transmitting atYep. I understand. Thanks for thinking this through with me.Thanks for taking such a methodical approach. KD4IZ
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Basil, John
I setup Beta 6 today. The install was painless, it may be my growing comfort with the setup, but it ran smoothly. Testing was where thing fell apart. Unfortunately I still struggling to get the both the direwolf and fldigi drives level adjusted with the IC-7000. It appears that the poster who suggested a 100k ohm (variable) resistor in the audio line from the DRAWS to the transceiver may be correct. I will upload a text file of my observations while running the "Ackerman" no-test-equipment deviation method" style adjustments and using the "measure_deviate.sh" script if desired... but this should cover almost everything: In short: 1. Audio drive was too high for the IC-7000 as it was defaulted by AX25/direwolf setup. 2. Used the "setalsa-udrc-alinco.sh" script to set the audio levels to a level that "worked" NOTE: I tried all of the scripts you included. The Alinco" levels produced a signal my HT and APRS gateway could decode - it sounded hot though. 3. While "measure_deviate.sh" was activated, reduced PCM all the way, then increased it until I heard no increase in volume of the received signal. That point occurred at about -6.00 dB - but ALC on the rig was still very high. LO Driver Gain level was already at -6.00 dB. 4. Re-enabled the AX.25/direwolf stuff and observed that these levels still resulted in decodable APRS [packets). 5. Killed AX.25, went to fldigi and SSB to see how the audio output was driving the 7000. ALC was still very high. 6. Increasing PCM increases distortion sound and visual splatter on Spectrum Lab. 7. Backing PCM to -21.00dB saw the ALC start to drop - but would not drop below 50% point. 8. Once PCM drops below about -25.00dB, the ALC starts to pump and the signal gets dirty sounding with a feedback-like harmonic beginning to be heard with loud hiss and crackling noises. These "best outcome" alsamixer levels are still not optimal by any descriptions I have read. I don't challenge that. PCM L:[-21.00dB], R:[-21.00dB] ADC Level L:[-5.00dB], R:[-5.00dB] LO Driver Gain L:[-6.00dB], R:[-6.00dB] IN1 L:[10kOhm], R:[10kOhm] IN1 L:[Off], R:[Off] Conclusion - AFAICT, clean audio IS being produced at higher PCM and LO Driver Gain levels - but the signal is at too high a level for the IC-7000. NOTE: I seem to remember I had to use the dropping resistor setting in the SignaLink with this radio. So that leads me to the conclusion that a variable resistor/ resistance network will be needed to get clean audio at a level that the IC-7000 (and apparently some other radios) seems to like. Next time I have the unit apart, I will try to find a good test point to measure the actual amplitude of the signal with a handheld digital oscilloscope I have. Thanks for your patience with my ramble. KD4IZ Jack Spitznagel FM19oo -- J Spitznagel Science River LLC KD4IZ
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Basil,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Found what I thought I remembered about IC-7000 data port sensitivity in the SignaLink FAQ at www.tigertronics.com. Obviously this will have an impact on DRAWS setup and operation with the IC-746Pro and the FT-450 as well. Naturally, older radios will get pressed into field service - these just happen to be commonly available and are "shelf spares" in quite a few shacks. I am going to see if I can find more about the solutions to this problem: "ATTENTION IC-7000, IC-746PRO and FT-450 Users - Some customers have reported that these radios have unusually sensitive Data Ports, which can make adjustment of the SignaLink's TX knob somewhat difficult. If this is the case with your radio, then *you should find that the procedure above where you install jumper JP4 and lower the Wave volume control resolves the issue*. However, you may also need to turn the radio's RF Power menu setting down for better control. A power setting of 35 to 45 watts usually works well for 25 to 35 watts of actual RF output as measured on a watt meter, or the radios Power Output meter. " Jack - KD4IZ
-----Original Message-----
From: udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io <udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Basil Gunn Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 17:58 To: udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io Subject: Re: [udrc] Status: IC-7000 Audio Levels for V/UHF and HF modes #draws #ic7000 #hfmodes First of all, thanks for all the time you are putting in. See suggestion for PCM, LO Drive gain below. Tried to take a scientific/stepwise approach with setting the DRAWSis being consistent. "sensor". Check this out by John Ackermann N8UR Look for: "The No-Test-Equipment Packet Adjustment System" https://www.febo.com/packet/layer-one/transmit.html Do you have a handy talky? use the measure_deviate script: n7nix/deviation/measure_deviate.sh Pick a tone, bring-up alsamixer Set PCM to 0db & drop LO Drive until there is no clipping ie. no distortion or just follow John Ackermann's suggestion. UHF - have not tried anything yet. TBDtested. TBD: wspr.separate. So the PCM/LO Driver Gain level settings that "work" in fldigi, don'tI don't have an answer but your description is a good data point. Here are my current alsamixer settings:So PCM set that low is very suspicious. It means you are not using many bits of the CODEC. I would play with returning PCM at least close to zero & dropping LO Driver Gain down. I am stuck until I can figure out how to coerce wsjt-x intoprovided in fldigi. At this point I don't even care if the overdrive issue isn't solved. IYep. I understand. Thanks for thinking this through with me.Thanks for taking such a methodical approach. KD4IZ -- J Spitznagel Science River LLC KD4IZ
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art upton <artupton@...>
Hi Jack, the ft-450D is the new version and it has the same issues of being over driven. Tigertronics used to have you put a resistor inside the signal link box to cure it on the audio out line. But they no-longer have that mod on their website. Folks were ruining the socket inside. I have one Signal Link that I have soldered the mod inside it, as over many years or reconfiguring for different radios with resistor and wire jumpers, I ruined the socket. Now I have 2 signal links and 2 Yaesu SCU17s which add CAT control lines as well. Art K8XG
On Wednesday, December 26, 2018, 10:01:00 AM EST, Jack Spitznagel <kd4iz@...> wrote:
Basil, Found what I thought I remembered about IC-7000 data port sensitivity in the SignaLink FAQ at www.tigertronics.com. Obviously this will have an impact on DRAWS setup and operation with the IC-746Pro and the FT-450 as well. Naturally, older radios will get pressed into field service - these just happen to be commonly available and are "shelf spares" in quite a few shacks. I am going to see if I can find more about the solutions to this problem: "ATTENTION IC-7000, IC-746PRO and FT-450 Users - Some customers have reported that these radios have unusually sensitive Data Ports, which can make adjustment of the SignaLink's TX knob somewhat difficult. If this is the case with your radio, then *you should find that the procedure above where you install jumper JP4 and lower the Wave volume control resolves the issue*. However, you may also need to turn the radio's RF Power menu setting down for better control. A power setting of 35 to 45 watts usually works well for 25 to 35 watts of actual RF output as measured on a watt meter, or the radios Power Output meter. " Jack - KD4IZ -----Original Message----- From: udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io <udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Basil Gunn Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 17:58 To: udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io Subject: Re: [udrc] Status: IC-7000 Audio Levels for V/UHF and HF modes #draws #ic7000 #hfmodes First of all, thanks for all the time you are putting in. See suggestion for PCM, LO Drive gain below. > Tried to take a scientific/stepwise approach with setting the DRAWS > board audio out today. > > I went through the entire level and deviation check routine again > today and wound up with very similar settings to my previous attempts. > I then tested direwolf VHF-FM first and then after disabling AX25, > fldigi and wsjt-x on HF. Results "ain't purty", but at least everything is being consistent. > > Software function status: > > VHF - with direwolf/Xastir transmitting and receiving on the local > packet network does work . > > Comment: I don't really have a an easy/better way to test than > function on APRS network locally. I have a sense that the audio may be > high, but I won't know until I have time to putter with Spectrum Lab. > It will become my "Deviation Meter" with an IC-7100 functioning as my "sensor". Check this out by John Ackermann N8UR Look for: "The No-Test-Equipment Packet Adjustment System" https://www.febo.com/packet/layer-one/transmit.html Do you have a handy talky? use the measure_deviate script: n7nix/deviation/measure_deviate.sh Pick a tone, bring-up alsamixer Set PCM to 0db & drop LO Drive until there is no clipping ie. no distortion or just follow John Ackermann's suggestion. > UHF - have not tried anything yet. TBD > > HF - With the alsamixer settings below (visually they produce the > "lowest splatter" per an IC-7300 panscope and using Spectrum Lab 2 > with the IC-7300 internal audio subsystem via USB. Rig coax is > grounded, RF gain at 20% with 20dB of attenuation: > > 1. Fldigi drives the IC-7000 up to full power (if set) but transmits a > very dirty sig at any power above 5%. > > Comment: The sig can be copied by others, but the ALC bar is reading 60%. > Not making any friends in the PSK world. These are ALC symptoms. > Reducing either the PCM level or LO Driver Gain results in very much > increased noise and a feedback like whistle at a different freq. > Increasing the two settings results in more splatter and harmonics. > > 2. WSJT-x receives just fine but DRAWS produces only an extremely low > transmit audio level according to the IC-7000 and signal being > received on other transceivers. Only testing with FT8 no other JT modes tested. TBD: > wspr. > > Comment: In transmit there is no Power Out deflection on the IC-7000 - > even if I adjust the PCM and IO Driver levels to the max, together or separate. > So the PCM/LO Driver Gain level settings that "work" in fldigi, don't > work in wsjt-x. I even went back to check that invoking wsjt-x did not > somehow tweak the alsamixer settings. they remained the same. > > Key Question: Why is DRAWS overdriving in fldigi, and then not putting > out enough audio level to drive the IC-7000 to set power level in > wjst-x FT8 mode with alsamixer settings remaining the same between apps? I don't have an answer but your description is a good data point. > Here are my current alsamixer settings: > > PCM L:[-21.50dB], R:[-21.50dB > > ADC Level L:[-2.00dB], R:[-2.00dB] > > LO Driver Gain L:[6.00dB], R:[6.00dB] > > IN1 L:[10kOhm], R:[10kOhm] > > IN2 L:[Off], R:[Off] So PCM set that low is very suspicious. It means you are not using many bits of the CODEC. I would play with returning PCM at least close to zero & dropping LO Driver Gain down. > I am stuck until I can figure out how to coerce wsjt-x into > transmitting at set power with the same audio input levels to the rig as provided in fldigi. > At this point I don't even care if the overdrive issue isn't solved. I > have decided to put the FT-817 aside because other are > working/reporting on it. I am only testing with the Beta 5 provided > software and the IC-7000 until I get these critical pieces working > reliably because that will be my main radio for this DRAWS kit. > > Now need to go pay attention to other stuff (like family and the local > zoo of 4-legged furries we keep here on the farm). Yep. I understand. > Thanks for thinking this through with me. Thanks for taking such a methodical approach. > KD4IZ > > Jack Spitznagel -- J Spitznagel Science River LLC KD4IZ
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Ed Bloom, KD9FRQ
I have an older FT-450......and my DRAWS will arrive as part of the next batch......
Are you saying that I still need some additional equipment to go between the RPi and the
radio along with the cable that goes from DRAWS to the radio?
Ed Bloom, KR9FRQ
ewbloom@... Sent from Webmail access
-----Original Message-----
From: art upton via Groups.Io <artupton@...> To: udrc <udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io> Sent: Wed, Dec 26, 2018 9:57 am Subject: Re: [udrc] Status: IC-7000 Audio Levels for V/UHF and HF modes #draws #ic7000 #hfmodes Hi Jack, the ft-450D is the new version and it has the same issues of being over driven. Tigertronics used to have you put a resistor inside the signal link box to cure it on the audio out line. But they no-longer have that mod on their website. Folks were ruining the socket inside. I have one Signal Link that I have soldered the mod inside it, as over many years or reconfiguring for different radios with resistor and wire jumpers, I ruined the socket. Now I have 2 signal links and 2 Yaesu SCU17s which add CAT control lines as well.
Art K8XG
On Wednesday, December 26, 2018, 10:01:00 AM EST, Jack Spitznagel <kd4iz@...> wrote:
Basil,
Found what I thought I remembered about IC-7000 data port sensitivity in the SignaLink FAQ at www.tigertronics.com. Obviously this will have an impact on DRAWS setup and operation with the IC-746Pro and the FT-450 as well. Naturally, older radios will get pressed into field service - these just happen to be commonly available and are "shelf spares" in quite a few shacks. I am going to see if I can find more about the solutions to this problem: "ATTENTION IC-7000, IC-746PRO and FT-450 Users - Some customers have reported that these radios have unusually sensitive Data Ports, which can make adjustment of the SignaLink's TX knob somewhat difficult. If this is the case with your radio, then *you should find that the procedure above where you install jumper JP4 and lower the Wave volume control resolves the issue*. However, you may also need to turn the radio's RF Power menu setting down for better control. A power setting of 35 to 45 watts usually works well for 25 to 35 watts of actual RF output as measured on a watt meter, or the radios Power Output meter. " Jack - KD4IZ -----Original Message----- From: udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io <udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Basil Gunn Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2018 17:58 To: udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io Subject: Re: [udrc] Status: IC-7000 Audio Levels for V/UHF and HF modes #draws #ic7000 #hfmodes First of all, thanks for all the time you are putting in. See suggestion for PCM, LO Drive gain below. > Tried to take a scientific/stepwise approach with setting the DRAWS > board audio out today. > > I went through the entire level and deviation check routine again > today and wound up with very similar settings to my previous attempts. > I then tested direwolf VHF-FM first and then after disabling AX25, > fldigi and wsjt-x on HF. Results "ain't purty", but at least everything is being consistent. > > Software function status: > > VHF - with direwolf/Xastir transmitting and receiving on the local > packet network does work . > > Comment: I don't really have a an easy/better way to test than > function on APRS network locally. I have a sense that the audio may be > high, but I won't know until I have time to putter with Spectrum Lab. > It will become my "Deviation Meter" with an IC-7100 functioning as my "sensor". Check this out by John Ackermann N8UR Look for: "The No-Test-Equipment Packet Adjustment System" https://www.febo.com/packet/layer-one/transmit.html Do you have a handy talky? use the measure_deviate script: n7nix/deviation/measure_deviate.sh Pick a tone, bring-up alsamixer Set PCM to 0db & drop LO Drive until there is no clipping ie. no distortion or just follow John Ackermann's suggestion. > UHF - have not tried anything yet. TBD > > HF - With the alsamixer settings below (visually they produce the > "lowest splatter" per an IC-7300 panscope and using Spectrum Lab 2 > with the IC-7300 internal audio subsystem via USB. Rig coax is > grounded, RF gain at 20% with 20dB of attenuation: > > 1. Fldigi drives the IC-7000 up to full power (if set) but transmits a > very dirty sig at any power above 5%. > > Comment: The sig can be copied by others, but the ALC bar is reading 60%. > Not making any friends in the PSK world. These are ALC symptoms. > Reducing either the PCM level or LO Driver Gain results in very much > increased noise and a feedback like whistle at a different freq. > Increasing the two settings results in more splatter and harmonics. > > 2. WSJT-x receives just fine but DRAWS produces only an extremely low > transmit audio level according to the IC-7000 and signal being > received on other transceivers. Only testing with FT8 no other JT modes tested. TBD: > wspr. > > Comment: In transmit there is no Power Out deflection on the IC-7000 - > even if I adjust the PCM and IO Driver levels to the max, together or separate. > So the PCM/LO Driver Gain level settings that "work" in fldigi, don't > work in wsjt-x. I even went back to check that invoking wsjt-x did not > somehow tweak the alsamixer settings. they remained the same. > > Key Question: Why is DRAWS overdriving in fldigi, and then not putting > out enough audio level to drive the IC-7000 to set power level in > wjst-x FT8 mode with alsamixer settings remaining the same between apps? I don't have an answer but your description is a good data point. > Here are my current alsamixer settings: > > PCM L:[-21.50dB], R:[-21.50dB > > ADC Level L:[-2.00dB], R:[-2.00dB] > > LO Driver Gain L:[6.00dB], R:[6.00dB] > > IN1 L:[10kOhm], R:[10kOhm] > > IN2 L:[Off], R:[Off] So PCM set that low is very suspicious. It means you are not using many bits of the CODEC. I would play with returning PCM at least close to zero & dropping LO Driver Gain down. > I am stuck until I can figure out how to coerce wsjt-x into > transmitting at set power with the same audio input levels to the rig as provided in fldigi. > At this point I don't even care if the overdrive issue isn't solved. I > have decided to put the FT-817 aside because other are > working/reporting on it. I am only testing with the Beta 5 provided > software and the IC-7000 until I get these critical pieces working > reliably because that will be my main radio for this DRAWS kit. > > Now need to go pay attention to other stuff (like family and the local > zoo of 4-legged furries we keep here on the farm). Yep. I understand. > Thanks for thinking this through with me. Thanks for taking such a methodical approach. > KD4IZ > > Jack Spitznagel -- J Spitznagel Science River LLC KD4IZ
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Hi Ed,
We don’t know yet.
As an owner of one of those radios, I am trying to figure out if this is the case. You may or may not need something else. Hope to have some answers fairly soon. NW Digital does not have models of every radio to test, so our “user experience” will hopefully help them with the growing pains.
Don’t let our (early adopters) mumbling distract you. I will be the first to tell you that I could be way off base on my guesses. Probably am.
Jack – KD4IZ
From: udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io <udrc@nw-digital-radio.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ed Bloom, KD9FRQ
I have an older FT-450......and my DRAWS will arrive as part of the next batch......
Are you saying that I still need some additional equipment to go between the RPi and the radio along with the cable that goes from DRAWS to the radio?
Ed Bloom, KR9FRQ Sent from Webmail access
-----Original Message----- Hi Jack, the ft-450D is the new version and it has the same issues of being over driven. Tigertronics used to have you put a resistor inside the signal link box to cure it on the audio out line. But they no-longer have that mod on their website. Folks were ruining the socket inside. I have one Signal Link that I have soldered the mod inside it, as over many years or reconfiguring for different radios with resistor and wire jumpers, I ruined the socket. Now I have 2 signal links and 2 Yaesu SCU17s which add CAT control lines as well.
Art K8XG
On Wednesday, December 26, 2018, 10:01:00 AM EST, Jack Spitznagel <kd4iz@...> wrote:
Basil, -- J Spitznagel Science River LLC KD4IZ
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